Mr. BEATTYS. Mr. Buck made this plea before the committee; I heard him. He said: Give me the same right you give every human being. I only ask my constitutional rights. Now, before saying what I was going to say in this, I want to say this: I have no criticism to pass upon Mr. Buck and all those whom he represents. When I say Mr. Buck, I mean everyone who is a composer and publisher. I have no criticism. I might do the same thing if I were in his place. Mr. BLOOM. Or worse. Mr. BEATTYS. And I am not criticizing him at all, but what did he have down in his heart when he made that plea? Did he have constitutional rights; did he have abstract rights he was after? No. What did he want? Money; money. Mr. Mills calls it cream. All right; it is the same thing with a different word. He wants that; that is what he wants. Now, he says "cash"; "give me cash "; you give me that and you can have all the constitutional rights that exist. Now what would he do if he got it? I know what he would do just as well as though he had done it. He will do this, he will go to the Victor Co. and he will say to Mr. Victor Co., "Here are some songs that I wrote and some other gentlemen wrote and they are hits. Now if you will give us so many thousands of dollars, we will give you the exclusive right to use those songs on records," and he will go to the American Piano Co. or the Eolian Co., if he did not get mad at me because I am talking about himhe will go to the Eolian Co. and he will say "Here are some songs; you give me so many thousands of dollars and I will give you, on behalf of my associates and myself, the right to make music rolls exclusively for two years, if you want it, or more." Now that would raise particular (after a pause) chaos with our industry. [Laughter.] That would put us out of business if we did not get them, if the other men got them. What is the principle underlying that? The devil take the hindmost. And if a competitor should say to him "Mr. Buck, don't you think that is an act contrary to public policy or rights," the only satisfactory answer he would get would be in the words of the ex-railroad magnate "The public be damned." That is what he would say. I do not blame him. He wants all the profit the traffic will bear. He is not thinking of the public; when he talks about copyrights, that is as much as he thinks about the public interest. Mr. BLOOM. Are you not doing the same thing? Mr. BEATTYS. No. Mr. BLOOM. I will say that you are. Mr. BEATTYS. No; for this reason: What are we here for? Money? No. Mr. BLOOM. No! Mr. BEATTYS. Let me tell you what we are here for. Mr. BLOOM. Just to entertain us, I suppose. Mr. BEATTYS. We are here for protection, not protection to make profits. The Lord knows the Aeolian Co. has not made one dollar in its music roll business for 10 years. Mr. BLOOM. What have they made it in, then? Mr. BEATTYS. Pianos. 98974-2621 Mr. BLOOM. Is not that incident to it? Mr. BEATTYS. If you want to stop me when I am making some impression, all right Mr. BLOOM. Go ahead. Mr. BEATTYS (continuing) But give me a show. I am answering your questions. We are not here for profits, but protection against further loss. That is what we are here for-protection against further loss. We have lost money for 10 years in the music-roll business, and I am going to show you why-partly through the publishers. Mr. BLOOM. Are you putting that building up on Fifth Avenue from your losses? Mr. BEATTYS. What is the use of saying that? We are not bankrupt, are we? Mr. BLOOM. I know, but you say you lost money for 10 years. Mr. BLOOM. But not on your business in general. You might lose on one thing and make a lot on another. Mr. BEATTYS. We are making mechanical pianos-reproducing pianos. If you will protect us, the public will get a good deal better service. That is all we are after; we are not here for money at all. Do not make any mistake about that. Now, here is what I want to say, that under the circumstances, as long as human nature is as it is, my point is that this Congress should not grant rights that could be used to promote monopolies, and I want to say right here that some questions have been brought up by Mr. Bloom, and to make clear this, that our piano--our reproducing piano is the Duo-Art, and the American Piano Co.'s is the Ampico. Now, our music roll is made by us; it must be made by us because it is a peculiar, particular kind of a roll that will play only on our piano. It will not play the Ampico. The Ampico piano can not be played by our roll, nor will our roll play the Ampico. Each concern is making its own roll. So that if you have one concern getting all the rolls, you could not say-well, you could not very well put others in. Every concern has to have its own and to make its own. We make our's with our own particular machines, with our own mechanisms. Mr. BLOOM. Under patent rights? Mr. BEATTYS. Very few patent rights. Mr. BLOOM. No one else could make them; you own the rights for making them? Mr. BEATTYS. Of the reproducing piano? Mr. BLOOM. No; for reproducing that certain kind of roll. Mr. BEATTYS. Oh, no; we have not any patent right on that; not a patent right. The merit is all; that is all, merit. We sell them because they are good. That is why people want them. Mr. BLOOM. Then any one can make the same kind of a rollmake it under that same process? Mr. BEATTYS. Well, we would try awfully hard to stop them; but what good would it do them? Mr. BLOOM. Under what right would you try to stop them? Mr. BEATTYS. Well, we will say we will try to go in and enjoin them from duplicating our rolls, because we have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop our rolls, and to allow a man to take our capital invested, and our efforts and skill in making that roll, and buy a machine and copy that roll Mr. BLOOM. But there is no patent, you say, on it, there is no protection you have under the law to those particular rolls. Now how are you going to stop them? Mr. BEATTYS. The rolls are not patented and can not be. Mr. BLOOM. The process of making them is patented though, is it not? Mr. BEATTYS. No; we have patents on the machines, but they are open to the public and there is no patent on them. Mr. BLOOM. Then if there are no patents on them at all, then any one can go in and make them, where you have no patent to make a particular roll. Mr. BEATTYS. They could make rolls, but they would not want to make rolls like ours, because they can only be used on our machines. Mr. BLOOM. Suppose I made a roll similar to yours which could be used on your machine, would I have a right to sell those rolls to be used on your machine? Mr. BEATTYS. Why, I suppose you would. Mr. BLOOM. You ought to know. Yes, or no? Mr. BEATTYS. Well, I do not think there is any patent on our roll at all. Mr. BLOOM. In other words, you do not exactly know? Mr. BEATTYS. Of course, they just suggest to me here that it could be stopped under unfair competition. The CHAIRMAN. That is the point I was going to make. Mr. BEATTYS. I will tell you this-I am not telling that for public consumption, but there are serious difficulties in that business, very serious difficulties. I have given a great deal of thought as to how we could stop a man who dubbed our rolls. Fortunately, we have not been bothered very particularly about that. The Victor Co. have; but they get them under certain theories of unfair competition. We have stopped them; I got up one theory and I did stop a man. I did not think it was very sound; Mr. Solberg does not think it was very sound under the copyright law; but, nevertheless, I got it up. Mr. BLOOM. That is dubbing? Mr. BEATTYS. Yes, dubbing. Mr. BLOOM. I am not talking about dubbing; but I want to know if a man can not go and make the same kind of rolls-similar rolls to yours-not the same thing-that could be played on your piano, and could you stop him? Mr. BEATTY. Only in the way I am talking about-unfair competition. Mr. BLOOM. All right. Mr. BEATTYS. Now, I want to say in speaking of the public interest there are the great majority of American homes-the great majority of American homes that is, a good many homes, representing a good many people, that have either a piano or phonograph. Now they need protection as well as we do, because they want the popular music and they have got to have it. They have got to have it supplied to them, and if only one concern has that right there would be the dickens to pay. Now this brings me right to the heart of it and I want to make this quite important. I am going to stop now pretty soon. I did not think I would take so much time, and I would not by myself. Now, every one, every company, must have access, every music roll concern must have access, to the popular dance music or go out of business. Now that means just what it says. If the American Piano Co. can have access to the exclusion of the Aeolian Co. to popular dance music for their pianos, we are down and out. They will sell one thousand Ampico pianos to one of ours. And if we get those rights to their exclusion they are out of it absolutely. Now, we could say that we had 50 per cent of our rolls classic, played by Paderewski and Hoffman and Rachmaninoff, and all these people. That does not make any difference. The essential thing is we must have popular dance music at the time it is popular. The people demand it; we have got to do it; and if we do not do it why, then, we can not do business. Now that is why, gentlemen of this Committee, our position is unique. It is different from the author and the publisher and the public; it is different from the theatrical producer and the drama writer and the public, because the publisher does not have to have every popular novel. He could not get them; he does not want them for his business. And the producer does not want every drama. He does not have to have it; and he does not want them. But the music roll people who sell reproducing pianos, must have every hit, musically, and if one man gets it and the other can not he is down and out with his musical instrument. Now I want to push that just as hard as I know how, because that is the heart of the thing, absolutely. Now, does the public want to go to one or two concerns to buy its pianos? No. Why? In the first place they do not want to pay any more money than they have to and, in the second place, they might be confined to particular kinds and makes of pianos. It is not fair to the public to make them go to one or two or three companies to buy their piano. We do not want the exclusive use. If we can not win on our merits then we ought to go down; but give us the same show you give every one else. Mr. BLOOM. May I ask you a question there? Mr. BEATTYS. All right, if it is material and relevant and to the point. Mr. BLOOM. It is relevant and material. Mr. BEATTYS. All right, go ahead. Mr. BLOOM. When you sell a roll, you put your price on it, do you not? Mr. BEATTYS. Yes. Mr. BLOOM. Your retail price? Mr. BEATTYS. Well, that depends upon whether we sell retail. Mr. BEATTYS. If we sell retail we do, if we sell wholesale we put on the wholesale price. Mr. BLOOM. But you do put a retail price on it? Mr. BEATTYS. Yes. Mr. BLOOM. Suppose when you sell them to Droop & Co., agents of the Aeolian Co. here, you tell them that roll should be sold at a dollar. Mr. BEATTYs. We do not. Mr. BLOOM. I just asked you if you put a retail price on it, and you said yes. Mr. BEATTYS. You mean for us? Mr. BLOOM. For anybody. Mr. BEATTYS. No; we never dictate to anybody as to what he shall sell it for. Mr. BLOOM. You have a price list of your own? Mr. BEATTYS. Yes; we do. Mr. BLOOM. Do you allow any of your agents throughout the country to sell your rolls at a less figure than the price marked on them at the price you set? Mr. BEATTYS. We absolutely do not attempt to control it. I will tell you what we might do, if you want me to be very frank. They know if they do cut prices on that, probably they will have difficulty in getting renewals of their orders. [Laughter.] Mr. BLOOM. Outside of that it is all right? Mr. BEATTYS. Now, you have heard here of the fondness of these composers to talk about the 2-cent postage stamp. Now, this is important. They say the artists, like Caruso, Paderewski, they get large money; they bargain for it; they get large money in payment for singing these songs, and the poor composer who composes the music gets a 2-cent postage stamp. Now, that is very misleading, and I am just going to tell you why that is misleading. You know we do not deal with the composers; I want to make that clear. I do not suppose there is a roll in our catalogue where we have obtained the rights from the composer. We deal altogether with the music publishers, and not over about five of the music publishers. Now, you see that is what that Rhode Island friend who came in here meant when he said, "I believe in curbing the publisher grabbing all of our composers, because I think we are entitled to it," and he says, "I do not think they would want him shoe tied, or something like that. Nevertheless, that is the way we feel about the publisher." All right. I am just going to say this: I gave some figures last year to the committee. I am no going to give those figures again; I am just going to draw this conclusion, and I will say this, that I figured up that for five years we paid several hundreds of thousands of dollars to about five music publishers for this 2-cent stamp business. Now, what did we pay to the artists, every one of them included, that played the rolls that created that hundreds of thousands of dollars royalty? We paid one-tenth of it and less to the artists. That is, the music publishers got ten times as much as the artists. Now, that is the fact about the business, and when you talk here about Caruso and Paderewski getting thousands of dollars and the publisher a 2-cent stamp, just remember that they got ten times as much as the artists for five years previous to the time I spoke before the other committee. I am only speaking of the Aeolian Piano Co. Mr. BLOOM. Are you figuring the royalties that went only for popular music, or are you figuring the royalties that people got for noncopyrighted music? Mr. BEATTYS. I am figuring every roll on which we paid a royalty of 2 cents. Every artist that played them, every selection, on every one of those rolls, together, got one-tenth and less and that from |