pear in the export index in its true value, and that is motion pictures. În 1924 the amounts received from abroad in the way of rentals and leases on American films, amounted to $70,000,000, conservatively estimated. In the year 1925 it was $75,000,000. In the past six years there has been a return on American motion pictures exhibited abroad amounting approximately to a total of $300,000,000, and there has been a progressive increase every year.

This total of our rentals received from American motion pictures abroad, $70,000,000, amounts to 1.3 per cent of our gross export business done in the year 1924.

Mr. BLOOM. How do you regulate that-that is, the amount of money they were sold for? That would not show the amount of money they received, because they might receive a million dollars for the rights of the pictures in a certain country. You would not have that in your export figures?

Mr. KOSICKI. I was going to explain that. The export figures show only $7,300,000 worth of films exported, because there is an arbitrary value placed on exported films of 3 or 4 cents a foot. You can not value a picture that way. It depends on how the film is received. Motion pictures are exported solely for exhibition. They are usually rented or leased, and these amounts come back to the United States. These amounts are what I have said, about $70,000,000 for the year 1924, and about $75,000,000 for the year 1925. Mr. BLOOM. Do they reprint from those? Are they negatives? Mr. KOSICKI. Of that $7,000,000 possibly $1,250,000 would be just the film itself, which is not to be exhibited.

Mr. BLOOM. Do they reprint from those films in foreign countries? Mr. KOSICKI. Yes; you mean without authority?

Mr. BLOOM. No; with authority.

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes.

Mr. BLOOM. Don't we do the same with them?

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes; of course, we reproduce here.

Mr. BLOOM. How can you arrive at any figures in reference to the imports or exports of motion pictures?

Mr. KOSICKI. The figures are only an estimate from the industry. Mr. BLOOM. I did not want the record to show that we were doing such a poor business.

Mr. KOSICKI. The foreign business does not compare at all with the domestic business. Our principal market is in the United States. But the revenue from foreign moving pictures is about 25 per cent of our gross profit here.

Mr. BLOOM. Have you got the exports in reference to records and rolls?

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes, sir.

Mr. BLOOM. Have you the amount of goods that were imported into this country in records and rolls, so as to show the offset, if there is any?

Mr. KOSICKI. No; I could have gotten them, but I did not get them. But what I was trying to show was the value of our exports of intellectual creations.

Mr. BLOOM. How does that affect this bill?

Mr. KOSICKI. I will come to that in a moment. I will take that point up right now.

What I am trying to show is, first, the value of our copyrighted matter that is being exported, and, secondly, the piracy of this matter which is cutting down the exportation of this matter and will continue to do so if it is allowed to continue. Piracy occurs where there is not adequate copyright protection. In the past year we have had several cases reported to us where motion-picture films have been pirated; that is, unauthorized prints made and sold in place of the original. If the producer here can not dispose of his original, he gets nothing. The pirate can make a print and dispose of it, and it looks like the original article. With a small investment, he can take away thhe legitimate profits of the maker.

The CHAIRMAN. You want to leave the impression here that the copyright law at the present time is not sufficient protection! Mr. KOSICKI. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The motion-picture industry, for instance, has no protection for its films?

Mr. KOSICKI. In foreign commerce, piracy has taken place in motion pictures more than in other fields, based on value. I am taking motion pictures as an illustration. I have several instances where piracy has occurred. In Greece, for example. Greece is a member of the copyright union. We do not have a treaty or copyright relations with Greece. I shall quote from a letter from the American commercial attaché in Athens, under date of March 17, 1925:

The exhibition of pirated American films is rather prevalent in Greece. Two or three complaints have reached me in the past year, and I understand in many other cases complaints are not made. Some of the administrative officers have sometimes held that there is no law or treaty provision to prevent the exhibition of these pirated American films.

There is a case.

his opinion:

The commercial attaché goes on and expresses

Unless our Government makes some provision to take care of the matter of trade treaty or the Berne convention, I see no hope of taking care of our motionpicture producers

And so forth.

That is not conclusive; it is an opinion from him. He states that illicitly reprinted films will continue to be circulated around the Balkans, which are a happy hunting ground for film pirates. In another letter the attaché says that almost every Chaplin film except "The Pilgrim," exhibited in Greece, was a pirated film. The estimated losses to the film producers in Greece were $47,000. The figures may be higher than that now, because our revenue from motion-picture films exhibited abroad was lower in past years than

now.

Then he mentions two films which came in which were pirated copies, one "The Kid," which arrived from Argentina, and one, "The Sky Ranger," which came from Egypt. That shows the working out of piracy in countries where we have no adequate protection.

Another country where this occurred is Japan. We have copyright relations with Japan. Japan also is a member of the copyright union. It has been my observation that piracy occurs even where there are international copyright relations, because these treaties provide only for reciprocity; in other words, if you want to get copyright protection you must go into that country and claim

it as a matter of law. So, having just a bilateral treaty with the country will not reach the matter, whereas, under the union, if you publish the work here and this country is a member of the union, you get automatic protection in the other countries.

Mr. BLOOM. What is the percentage of piracy in this country against European countries? Is there not a lot of that here?

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes, sir; but I believe it has been practically stamped out. I believe in the East it rarely happens, and on the west coast. we hear very little of it. Several years ago we heard much about piracy, but the law reaching the pirate

Mr. GOODWIN. Do I understand a subject or resident of Greece can pirate an American-produced film and sell that film to another country with which we have reciprocal relations?

Mr. KOSICKI. I think that could happen.

Mr. GOODWIN. Without being subjected to recovery for damages? Mr. KOSICKI. If the film were not protected in that country. Our international relations provide only for reciprocity. The owner of the copyright in the United States must go into that country and conform with the law. If the law requires the registration of the scenario and a deposit, he must do that to get the protection.

The CHAIRMAN. If we were members of the copyright union-the Berne convention-would we be protected?

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes, sir; because of the automatic protection. Greece is a member of the union.

The CHAIRMAN. That is by reason of the fact the American owner of the copyright could automatically have his copyright registered in every country that is a member of the union?

Mr. KOSICKI. He would get automatic protection by having acquired a copyright in the United States. He would not have to go into the other countries and claim the special right.

The CHAIRMAN. He would have to make some sort of application before he could get this protection in other countries, would he not? Mr. KOSICKI. Not in the union.

The CHAIRMAN. I have always understood that he would have to make an application to some coinmittee or something at Berne which would then extend this copyright into all these countries, members of the union. Is that right?

Mr. KOSICKI. Possibly, Mr. Vestal, you have in mind the arrangement for the international registration of trade-marks.

The CHAIRMAN. Industrial property, the same thing-I guess that is right.

Mr. KOSICKI. But in the copyright union there is not that provision.

Mr. GOODWIN. How are the proper authorities in the other countries informed of the fact that an individual in this country has obtained a copyright in the United States?

Mr. KOSICKI. There does not seem to be that necessity. A man when he copies a film knows it belongs to some one else.

Mr. BLOOм. He knows it does not belong to him?

Mr. KOSICKI. He knows it does not belong to him; yes, sir; and the law protects the legitimate producer in that way.

Mr. BLOOM. Are you an attorney?

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes, sir.

98974-2613

Mr. BLOOM. I see you understand the law in the bill very well. Do you believe we can go into the Berne convention if we do not conform to the provision with reference to formalities?

Mr. KOSICKI. If I get your question right, you mean can we get in there and retain certain formalities in this country?

Mr. BLOOM. Registration of copyright, etc.

Mr. KOSICKI. My observation would be this: In so far as our citizens are concerned, we can retain all the formalities of the law. In so far as the subjects of union countries are concerned, we would have to conform to the articles in that convention. Article 4 of the convention reads:

The enjoyment and the exercise of such rights are not subject to any formality.

That is a very general statement.

Mr. BLOOм. Å registration would be a formality, would it not? Mr. KOSICKI. A registration would be a formality; yes, sir; and therefore, in so far as the claim of copyright is concerned, no registration would be necessary.

Mr. BLOOM. The printing of the copyright or the notice of copyright on the song, or whatever it is, is a formality, is it not?

To

Mr. KOSICKI. That is a question on which I can not give a conclusive opinion. Mr. Fenning stated that that is a formality. my mind it appears only a part of the procedure in the protection you get; in other words, notice is something you give before bringing an action. The notice relates to the protection and not to the formality of claiming the copyright.

Mr. BLOOM. Do you or do you not agree with Mr. Fenning's contention in regard to that?

Mr. KOSICKI. In reference to the notice I do not agree with Mr. Fenning. Article 4 goes on to say:

Such enjoyment and such exercise are independent of the existence of protection in the country of origin of the work. Consequently, apart from the stipulations of the present convention, the extent of the protection, as well as the means of redress guaranteed to the author to safeguard his rights, are regulated exclusively according to the legislation of the country where the protection is claimed.

Now, if you regard notice as a part of your action for infringement, that is a matter of protection.

Mr. BLOOм. How far would that notice extend?

Mr. KOSICKI. Well, now, arguing from that, I do not think that it would be contrary to the provisions of the convention to require a notice, and if the person does not give a notice, refrain from giving protection unless the defendant has actual notice.

Mr. BLOOM. I wish you lawyers could agree on something.

Mr. KOSICKI. To pursue my remarks on piracy, I wish to quote also from a report of the trade commissioner at Tokyo:

The problem of preventing the exhibition of pirated films in Japan is one which has given the local industry considerable difficulty in the past, most of these films finding their way into this country to dealers located in the city, from London.

Then, I also have here facts showing that piracy has invaded the Holy Land. I have a report from Palestine. The general manager of the Near East agency of the Universal Pictures Corporation of New York, in his letter of October 12, 1925, stated:

66

We suffer heavy losses in Palestine from pirated films imported into that country. Either we can not sell at all, because the film has already been exhibited," or he states when he finds a customer willing to buy, he has to guarantee that the picture has not been exhibited previously in Palestine. You see, the matter of piracy works both ways. You make a contract with a person for the leasing of a film and a pirate comes in and exhibits the film, and it takes away the revenue first, and, secondly, you may on the contract be subject to damages in case the film is exhibited by unauthorized persons, in which case you can not give that which you contracted to give. According to my records, Palestine is a member of the copyright union. Recently we have been bothered by the same thing appearing in Poland, which is a member of the copyright union. We have no copyright relations with Poland. It was reported recently that four pirated Harold Lloyd films were to be shown in Poland. Another report stated that two of the films were to be taken to Latvia and Esthonia.

It seems pirated prints have not been made in any one place. There has been an effort to place the responsibility on a London concern, but they have appeared from Egypt, from France, from Italy, and from other countries.

Mr. BLOOM. Have we any agreements or relations with Latvia or Esthonia?

Mr. KOSICKI. I do not know whether these countries have copyright laws. We have no copyright relations.

Mr. BLOOM. But we have separate treaties?

Mr. KOSICKI. No, sir; nor with Poland.

Mr. BLOOM. Not commercial treaties?

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes; I believe we have commercial treaties.

The CHAIRMAN. I understood him to say that we had no copyright relations.

Mr. KOSICKI. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BLOOM. I would like to ask a question. Why can we not get copyright agreements with these countries? Have you tried very hard?

Mr. KOSICKI. I understand our policy has been to permit a foreign country to apply for the privilege of getting copyright protection for its citizens to our Government. In the past, foreigners had more to gain by copyright protection here than our citizens in a foreign country. Of course, if the foreign country proves that it offers advantages substantially similar to those that our law offers to their citizens, the relations can be declared by Presidential proclamation.

Mr. BLOOM. Our relations have been very friendly with all those countries. I do not see why we can not enter into such an agreement. Mr. KOSICKI. It is a matter that may have been overlooked in the past as not pressing. But the figures we have show that in certain fields of intellectual creations, there are significant commercial values which must be protected.

Mr. BLOOM. Have you not been sleeping on your rights?

Mr. KOSICKI. Well, no, we have not, in some cases, in some countries. Of course some of the countries being succession states that have arisen since the war