Mr. BYE. I would have to answer that as being a guess; I don't know there would be any way of substantiating it, except for this, that I have talked with fair managers of different State fairs and county fairs, and they feel that there probably would be a 20- to 25-percent reduction. They have found that there are approximately that many people who come for the amusement end of it.

Now, it is true they go through the exhibits at the same time and hundreds of those that go to the exhibits never set foot on the midway, but they do feel that a figure of that kind would be a fair estimate which I acknowledged is a guess.

Mr. HARRIS. Is it generally recognized throughout the country that by these carnivals and all of those things that go with it, with all of the flare and dramatics and entertainment and amusement they have there, that that does attract people to that show which if they attend, most people will get something out of it by going through the exhibits.

Mr. BYE. It surely does. I might add as far as the fairs are concerned, the carnival and the midway bring entertainment and amusement to people who attend that fair, that is probably their only chance of such kind of amusement.

Mr. HARRIS. And if this definition as it is proposed here is allowed to stand, then it would be your belief as a lawyer it could very well prevent such operations, and consequently would have a very great deterrent effect on the livestock shows throughout the Nation.

Mr. BYE. It would have a financial effect, and I would not say as to the exhibit. They could still exhibit but it would have a very bad effect on the financial outcome of the fairs.

Mr. HARRIS. To have a successful livestock show they have got to give premiums for the best type of stock and that runs up into the thousands and thousands of dollars.

Mr. BYE. It would seriously affect that.

Mr. HARRIS. If they don't have the revenue from some source or another to pay for that, it couldn't be, could it?

Mr. BYE. No.

Mr. HARRIS. And then that effect would be that the man who has a herd of white faced cattle wouldn't be so interested in getting them ready for such a wonderful exhibit that he hopes that all of the people will be able to come and see.

Mr. BYE. Absolutely.

Mr. HARRIS. Do you have any suggestions with reference to amendatory language?

Mr. BYE. Yes, I have covered that in my statement and it is very simple. Of course as far as we are concerned, we are not slot machine people.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Mr. Bye, in that connection was reference to what Mr. Harris has just said, have you actually prepared an amendment that you feel would appropriately exempt this group of people you

have in mind?

Mr. BYE. Yes, and it is contained on page 8 and 9 of the statement. Simply it is this: To use the identical wording of the second portion of the description in the revenue act, and then to add to that what the Department put in their analysis of the Senate bill which I recite and quote verbatim. They felt that the word "the element of chance," in that definition might let in some other kind of machines, slot

machines and they said it should be "any," and so my suggestion is to use that wording, and substitute "any" for "the," and that would do it, and also add "or any parts thereof," if they would want that.

Mr. BECKWORTH. I think in view of the very interesting discussion you have given it might be well to place the amendment you have in mind at the beginning of your statement so that those who don't have a chance to read all of that definitely if they desire to refer to your statement could find it with ease.

Mr. BYE. May I have permission to file a supplement?

Mr. BECKWORTH. I know the committee will be interested in this problem, it is obvious that the interest is very general about what Mr. Harris has said here. That is true all over the country with reference to our fairs and carnivals.

Mr. BYE. Gentlemen, there are 100,000,000 people in the course of the year that go to these things.

Mr. HARRIS. I would like Mr. Bye to file such an amendment as proposed for consideration, because I notice here in his statement he merely gives an analysis of the provisions of the bill, in section 1. That takes in, I believe, language that would be unnecessary.

Mr. BYE. Í did that with malice aforethought. We are not in any way connected with the slot-machine business and I thought it might be presumptuous on my part to attempt to tell the committee how or what bill to write that would govern the slot-machine business.

Mr. HARRIS. The committee is not trying to embarrass you or anyone else and I think that you have a perfect right to submit any language in the way of a proposal.

Mr. BYE. I will be very glad to do so.

Mr. BECKWORTH. And make it as specific as you can as to where you would place the amendment to take care of your specific problem. Mr. BYE. Will I have a little time on that?

can.

Mr. BECKWORTH. It should be done relatively soon, as soon as you The committee does appreciate what you have told them. Mr. BYE. I am sorry, that the time ran out and I certainly appreciate your hearing me thus far.

Mr. BECKWORTH. And as soon as you can prepare that language, do so.

Mr. BYE. I will have it over today.

(The following matter was later submitted by Mr. Bye :)

DIGEST OF SOME OF THE APPROXIMATELY 100 TELEGRAMS AND LETTERS RECEIVED BY HERBERT W. BYE, ATTORNEY FOR CLIENTS ENGAGED IN THE OUTDOOR SHOW BUSINESS, REQUESTING HIM TO VOICE THEIR OBJECTIONS TO THE PASSAGE OF SENATE BILL 3357 AND H. R. 6736, AS WRITTEN

W. T. Broxton, Montgomery, Ala.

Disastrous blow at free enterprise. Loss of revenue to fairs and fraternal organizations.

Eddie Moran, Southern Valley Shows, Pine Bluff, Ark.

Twenty-four semitrailer and truck units playing 18 county fairs put out of business-500 people unemployed.

Pat Bales, Searcy, Ark.

Unfair to labor.

Harry W. Hennies, Hot Springs, Ark.

Ruinous to outdoor business.

trous to State and county fairs.

Should apply only to slot machines. Disas

William Myers, Atlanta, Ga.

Loss of income to him and many others.

J. C. Scott, United Exposition Shows, Belleville, Ill.

Would be felony to operate concessions which during war lauded as morale uplift.

G. L. Rice, Belleville, Ill.

Would place disabled soldiers on relief.

Kermit Tatham, Clinton, Ill. (letter)

Unamerican. Why did we fight the last war.

Wounded in service. Would

lose livelihood. Raised $5,000,000 in bond sales last war.

Ray Oakes and Sons, Inc., Lyons, Ill. (letter)

Manufacturer of carnival equipment. Service over 1,000 organizations such as Legion, firemen, etc. Operate in 48 States, Hawaii and Alaska. Would be put out of business.

Clifford C. Vernon, Belleville, Ill.

Put concessions out of business. Increase unemployment. Government lose income.

C. A. Vernon, Belleville, Ill.

In carnival business 27 years. Paid from $100 to $6,000 per month to Government for admissions tax. 200 employees put out of business.

Harold Clippard, Belleville, Ill.

Many ex-soldiers thrown out of employment.

E. L. Young, owner, Royal Crown Shows, Lexington, Ky.

Put out of business. Hardship on sponsors. Thousands of people out of employment. Must have concessions to enable carnival to operate. Would be put out of business.

Vince McCabe, Chillicothe, Mo.

Disabled war veterans and commander, Disabled American Veterans Chapter 37. Put tens of thousands of people out of work. Entirely different from slot machines.

William R. Dyer, Dyers Greater Shows, Cape Girardeau, Mo.

One hundred people of his company object. Would deprive of right to make living.

K. H. Garman, Chillicothe, Mo.

Member of chamber of commerce. Would hurt business.

R. V. Nugent, Syracuse, N. Y.

Bill is un-American and unenforceable.

William B. Jacobs, Toledo, Ohio

Proposed bill another Volstead Act against the American people. Speaks for himself and 150 concession men.

Carl Bohn, Hollis, Okla.

Cause unemployment of approximately 200 people in their show. Thousands of outdoor showmen become unemployed. Government will lose many millions of taxes.

Conemaugh Playground Committee, George Fesko, chief of police, Johnstown, Pa.

Bill will close all carnivals. Ours and like organizations receive our revenue from sponsoring same.

George C. Smith, owner, George Clyde Smith Shows, Johnstown, Pa.

Passing of bill will close my business which makes livelihood for hundreds.

Jack R. Lindsey, Dallas, Tex.

Would put tens of thousands of people out of work. Entirely different from slot machines.

SUPPLEMENT TO THE STATEMENT HERETOFORE FILED IN THESE PROCEEDINGS, BY HERBERT W. BYE, ATTORNEY FOR CLIENTS ENGAGED IN OR CONNECTED WITH THE OUTDOOR SHOW BUSINESS

To supplement the objections heretofore filed by me to the passage of S. 3357 and H. R. 6736, as written, and as a supplement to the testimony and statement given by me at the public hearings on said bills before the House of Representatives Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee, and complying with the request made by the committee at such hearings, I wish to submit the attached, showing suggested changes in the wording of S. 3357. I believe that the suggested changes in wording will accomplish the avowed purpose of this proposed legislation, which is, as I understand it, to curb the so-called slot-machine racket. You will notice that the suggested wording follows almost identically the wording of (b2) of section 3267 of the United States Internal Revenue Code, as amended, which provides for the payment of a $100 tax on so-called slot machines. If the attached suggestion is followed, the subsequent sections of S. 3357 could remain as written, since they would then only apply to slot machines as above defined.

Respectfully submitted.

HERBERT W. BYE.

SUGGESTED CHANGES IN WORDING OF SENATE BILL 3357

1. Change the title of the bill to read as follows: "To prohibit transportation of slot machines in interstate and foreign commerce."

2. Change the wording of section 1 to read as follows:

"SECTION 1. As used in this Act the term "gambling device" means any machine or mechanical device commonly known as a slot machine, or parts thereof, which operates by means of insertion of a coin, token, or similar object, and which, by application of any element of chance, may deliver, or entitle the person playing or operating the machine to receive cash, premiums, merchandise, or tokens."

Mr. BECKWORTH. The committee adjourns until 10 o'clock in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 12: 20 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned to reconvene at 10 a. m., Friday, May 5, 1950.)