towers in the hundreds of thousands of dollars that go on these carnivals.

Mr. BECKWORTH. What is the nature of these letters, Mr. Bye?

Mr. BYE. If the committee please, I would be glad to leave them with the committee not as a part of the record unless the committee desires to have them. I didn't want to take the time to read all of these but I am trying to show the universality and the extent of this outdoor amusement business.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Are they letters to you?

Mr. BYE. Yes; asking me to represent them at the hearing and voicing the objections to Senate bill No. 3357 as written.

We want to qualify, everything I say, on our objection that we do not object to the bill but we do as written.

Mr. BECKWORTH. They are letters which substantiate the position that you are taking with reference to the legislation.

Mr. BYE. And giving their reasons why, yes. There is another one from United States Tent & Awning Co., at Chicago, Ill., manufacturers of tents. The National Showmen's Association of New York which has over 1,000 or 1,500 members. Casey Concession Co., at Chicago. Arthur E. Campfield, Inc., of New York City, also manufacturers of tents and canvas equipment.

I merely show those to show that the interest is there.

Now, my clients and those that I represent do not manufacture any machines. We don't sell any machines so it is different than the approach made by the witnesses that I have heard testify here before. We do use machines and the way this bill is worded there is practically no doubt that it would drive the outdoor show business out of business.

These carnivals show at State fairs, county fairs, American Legion conventions, and fund-raising activities of the American Legion, police-department benefits, fire-department benefits, labor organizations, all other veterans associations and for churches.

At all of these you will have to admit that there are machines and mechanical devices that probably would come under the definition of that law.

If passed as it is worded, they would be prohibited.

These carnivals also, of course, operate shows and rides and I think that you are all familiar perhaps with a carnival and a midway on a State fair. There are hundreds of thousands of people employed directly or indirectly in this industry, and every midway and every fair that you have ever seen that has been held, there have always been concessions.

As a matter of fact, a carnival company, either truck or railroad, could not exist and continue in business without the revenue derived from concessions. That has been a custom and that is as American now as apple pie or butter and eggs or anything else.

Now, may I ask the members of the committee a question?

Mr. HARRIS. You may ask, but I am not sure that we will answer it. Mr. BECKWORTH. I might say that naturally the purpose of the hearing is for a person to come to make a statement to the committee, and to make any statement that he desires to make and to obtain the information that we can which might be given by those who want to be heard. You may ask the question.

Mr. BYE. What I was going to ask of the members of the committee if there are any members of the committee who never in their youth or now or expect later, have never attended a State or county fair and have never patronized the shows, rides, and concessions, and if there are any such that never have I would like to know it and otherwise I will proceed assuming that you know what I am talking about. Mr. BECKWORTH. I would assume that each of us has been to fairs and shows, yes.

Mr. BYE. Now, at these fairs, you are familiar with the general class of concessions. There are wheels, there are fish ponds, there are bingo games and high strikers, guess-your-weight devices and I think it would be covered by the wording of this bill. I think that we are getting far afield here. The purpose of this bill and this whole legislation, as I understand, was what we have been calling one-armed bandits. We don't have any and we are not connected with that business in any manner. We do sell merchandise by concessions. And we will admit that.

If you ask me, if they are gambling devices, which someone probably will, I don't know. I can show you 100 or 200 State decisions, local holdings where some of the concessions are and some of them are not. The great majority of these are not because they do not pay off in money, they pay off in merchandise. That is why these merchandise manufacturers are interested in this legislation because they sell millions of dollars a year that is finally turned out to the public in the form of prizes.

The average amount spent by the public and incidentally I called attention to the exhibit attached to my objections that shows the public attendance at these fairs, and the amount spent by them and the amusement that they derive from this. The usual charge is 10 or 25 cents. The average figures of my client show less than $1 average for the farmer and his wife that goes to the State fair or the county fair or for the American Legion man and in every case either the State fair board or the county fair board or the American Legion or the church derives a portion of that revenue.

When I go to a carnival or to the American Legion or anybody the public goes, and puts up 10 cents to catch a fish with a small pole, because that makes it look more attractive and more people will play it, and that is agitated by a motor; that is a mechanical device. Under this we can go to jail for 2 years then including the Legion committee and the State fair board, I think. They pay that, and they don't expect to get a $2 or $2.50 blanket for 10 cents.

They know that is not a business transaction and anybody that is not foolish would know that. They know there is an element of chance in it.

One hundred million people that attend these every year know that. They do it for the fun and the amusement. The farmer at the State fair, those are held in the fall and he is out there to get a good time. If he spends $5 or $6 letting his children have fun and he brings home a panda doll, he enjoys it and I don't think that that is gambling. It certainly isn't any great syndicate of hoodlums that we have been reading about that take $2,000,000,000 worth of somebody's money They go there to have a good time; if they spent $5 or $10 they think it is well worth while and the fair board gets the

return.

To show how this operates, take the fish pond that gives out merchandise. We are not talking about slot machines that return any money. It gives out merchandise and let us say a doll or a toy panda or a blanket.

Actually that item will retail in that locality for $2. The concession operator because he will buy 100 or maybe 300 gross of those during the season, he will buy them like any jobber would, and buy them for $1. I am just giving comparative figures. When somebody plays that game for 10 cents, they get something that retails for $2 and it costs the concession man $1.

There is a profit or a spread which we say is a merchandising profit, and in every case where the State has a sales tax we have to pay the sales tax on the exact number of dolls and blankets that have been given out during the week at the fair.

We are charged that sales tax. That is because that is a sale. Out of that extra dollar the American Legion and the fair board and the police force get their share. The carnival owner who transports this around for 30 weeks through mud, snow, and ice and it is no easy job, and I will say that any so-called syndicate man wouldn't stand that gaff for 30 weeks-he might put in a machine and let it run, but he wouldn't push it around for the season. He gets a share of that.

The concession operator also gets what profit he has, and if he has a bad rainy week, he makes nothing. He does get a profit. Usually it is himself and his wife that are operating this. They go along for 30 weeks and if they make $100 a week for those 30 weeks they are making very good money. They pay income tax on the amount of money that they make. So I want to pont that out, it is no $2,000,000,000 syndicate sitting back collecting money and getting in shovelsful. It is hard honest work.

Mr. DOLLIVER. May I make an inquiry at this point?

Were you here the other day when the representative of the Federal Trade Commission testified about the unfair trade practices with respect to merchandise that is sold?

Mr. BYE. I was not.

Mr. DOLLIVER. I wonder if your industry has ever fallen afoul of the regulations of the Federal Trade Commission with respect to the uses of such things as punchboards or so on?

Mr. BYE. We do not operate punchboards.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Have your various industries which you represent ever had any run-in with the Federal Trade Commission?

Mr. BYE. Never to my knowledge or to the knowledge of my clients, they have never been approached on the subject.

Mr. DOLLIVER. There was a basis for unfair trade practice and I am not talking about a criminal prosecution.

Mr. BYE. There never has been any such thing.

Mr. DOLLIVER. That is all, thank you.

Mr. BYE. In that kind of an operation, the 10 cents that the public pays for the amusement is split as I have explained so many ways between the fair board and the Legion and the operator that there isn't any money left there to influence legislation that we understand was one of the reasons for this so-called slot machine law.

We would like to confine this to slot machines, but since I have been at these hearings we have covered toy machines that Santa Claus.

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brought to the children and I think every communication I have received from the committee has called it a slot-machine law.

If you would say "slot-machine law" we would have no objection, and 100,000,000 people would be able to patronize these fairs.

Of these concession operators who do the actual work, more than 50 percent of them are veterans. There is a logical reason for that and incidentally there are over 50,000 of these men so employed each year. Over 50 percent are veterans and there is a logical reason. Prior to the war they all work outdoors, and they are healthy and they were in nonessential industry and they were drafted. They have come back now and they want to continue to operate their profession.

Mr. HARRIS. Mr. Chairman, I don't like to interrupt but that is a roll call and we will have to go. I wonder if Mr. Bye could have permission to include his statement.

Mr. BECKWORTH. That has already been done.

Mr. HARRIS. And ask that he file any additional statement that he would like in connection with his own statement and permit three or four questions before we adjourn.

Mr. BECKWORTH. I think that that would be good procedure.

Mr. BYE. If I might just close, all I had were a few telegrams here. Incidentally, the fact was published in the Billboard magazine, which is the outdoor show magazine, that I was going to attend this meeting.

I have here close to 100 telegrams from people I don't know, so I certainly do not solicit them, that came to the Mayflower Hotel, and if you may just bear with me a minute.

Mr. BECKWORTH. You expect to leave those communications, including the letters of course, with the clerk so that the committee may have them available to examine.

Mr. BYE. May I read a few of the wires?

Mr. HARRIS. We are not going to be able to ask any questions if that is permitted.

Mr. BYE. I would be glad to come back tomorrow morning.

Mr. BECKWORTH. You may read one or two of the wires and I think we still would have a chance to ask a question or two.

Mr. BYE. It is just a summing up. One of them reads:

This is my only

I wish to send you my strongest objection to Senate bill. income and the income of many others who work with me and it would certainly place us in a terrible situation if this bill is passed.

That is from Atlanta, Ga., William Meyers.

Business now looks like a felony to transport concessions which during the war was upheld and lauded as a moral uplift. Please fight the bill. During the war show people were praised highly for their work and now they are about to be felons. Fight 3557. Disabled ex-soldiers. Do not draw pensions.

you.

Mr. BECKWORTH. That is three of them and now Mr. Harris wants to ask you a question or two. I am not sure we can accommodate Mr. BYE. May I place these particular telegrams in the record? Mr. BECKWORTH. Without objection, they may be placed in the record if they are not too lengthy. We may desire to examine them, but I would think in the main we can place most of them in the record.

The reason it is necessary to ask a question or two is, it may not be possible for you to appear again tomorrow from the standpoint of the time of the committee.

Mr. HARRIS. I do not want to restrain the witness from making any statement, and so I would prefer, if he prefers, to go ahead.

Mr. BECKWORTH. You may proceed now if you desire.

Mr. HARRIS. What I wanted to point out, I assume that you are quite familiar with the operation of State fairs where these concessions are given and various activities where the people go for amusement purposes as well as for educational and other reasons.

Mr. BYE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRIS. Now, you take a State fair, for instance. Generally that is supported by appropriations by the State legislature.

Mr. BYE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HARRIS. However, is it recognized that it is necessary to have additional funds in order to make that fair a success?

Mr. BYE. Yes, sir; and I might answer that in the State of Illinois, where I come from, it was either last year or the year before they had a deficit of over $60,000, and the particular carnival that had the midway at that fair turned in over $50,000 to the fair, but it still had a deficit of $60,000.

Mr. HARRIS. Where does the fair get the additional income generally to take care of the expenses in the operation?

Mr. BYE. The biggest source of revenue is from the midway, the carnival, that is the largest source. There is the sale of exhibit space, and I am talking about the largest individual source. There

is the sale of exhibit space to the various exhibitors, and they charge so much per front foot or so much per square foot, and that revenue is turned in.

The local restaurant man will be allowed to put an eating concession in and he is charged so much, and that goes into the fund.

Mr. HARRIS. In other words, a substantial part of this additional fund comes from concessions of various kinds.

Mr. BYE. That is correct.

Mr. HARRIS. And the largest revenue then derived comes from such as carnival concessions and so on?

Mr. BYE. Concessions, rides, and shows.

Mr. HARRIS. What about the gate receipts?

Mr. BYE. That is another source that goes into the fund for the operation of the fair.

Mr. HARRIS. Is that usually substantial or not?

Mr. BYE. Yes; it is; I forgot that.

Mr. HARRIS. Would you say that that was the most substantia) revenue?

Mr. BYE. At fairs that charge admission, yes; there are quite a few fairs that do not charge any admission, and some they charge what admission they can and then they give out hundreds of thousands of free tickets.

Mr. HARRIS. In my own State of Arkansas, we have the State fair every year, and like in your State and other States, it has become the most outstanding event for the promotion of livestock and the livestock program.

Now, 1,000 people go through the gate every day during the week or 10 days of that fair. What would be your estimate, if you are able to give it, of the decline in revenue or the number of people that attend the State fair and livestock show if the concessions and carnivals and so forth were not permitted to operate there?