By Senator Bronson:

Q. When was that, when did that conversation take place? A. 1872.

Q. How long after you had taken charge of the Penitentiary? A. Well; I think, but I am not certain, I think in July, the first quarterly visit that he made, that is my impression.

Q. What, in your opinion, was the value of this tallow and grease? A. Well, carefully looked after, I put it at $500 a year.

Q. In your opinion, would it not amount to considerably more than that? A. No sir, I don't think it was.

Q. You have sold all the tallow and grease you didn't use in there? A. Yes sir.

Q. Have you kept any account of the amount you received? A. No sir; I havn't.

Q. To whom did you sell it? A. To Mr. Klein, and Mr. Blom, at Keokuk.

Q. Do you know their initials? A. William Blom, and Samuel Klein.

Q. Doctor, how is it, hasn't the amount of this tallow and grease that you have sold, increased in quantity from year to year since you have been in there? A. Yes; so has the quantity I have had to util ize.

Q. Then for the year 1873 you sold more than for 1872? A. Well, I wouldn't hardly know how to figure that, for I have used more and the number of men have increased.

Q. You bought more meat? A. Yes.

Q. The tallow increased in proportion? A. There would be an increase of the quantity of that, and also of that which was used.

Q. In your opinion, was there not double as much sold in 1876 as there was in 1872? A. I don't think there was.

Q. Well, how much more? A. Indeed, I can't tell.

Q. One-third more? A. I never kept an account of it; I don't know; I never kept an account by the month, or by the year or two years, nor five; I don't know.

Q. Do you know how much it amounted to for the three months you kept an account in 1872? A. No sir; but I think I know pretty nearly; I can't state the amount exactly; $200; may be a little rise; $300; but then I dont remember exactly; I don't remember what month I sold it in.

Q. You sold it in each month, Doctor. I think for the first three months? A. I think not. My impression is, I was sick a long time and not out of the house. My recollection is the first sale I had made was after I got to crawling around, after having inflamatory rheumatism. I was down sick on the 23d of April, and wasn't able to get around. I laid flat on my back for four weeks, possibly able to get out to the bell-house, but not up and down in the shops. I don't remem ber exactly how long. I was taken sick the 23d day of April, and was sick for some time afterward.

Here the committee adjourned until 1:30, P. M.

1:30, O'CLOCK, P. M.

EXAMINATION OF MR. CRAIG CONTINUed.

Examination by Senator Bronson:

Q. What, in your opinion, was the value of the tallow and grease that you sold during the years from April, 1872, until April, 1874? A. I kept no account.

QI asked you your opinion. A. Well, I don't know that I could give an intelligent opinion, for I kept no account of it at all. A part of the grease, Senator, that has been up there has been rendered out of hogs of my own that died and were wheeled into the yard. I don't know how many, but a great many of fat hogs of mine were wheeled in and tried out, and as to the amount that I have sold, I haven't the remotest idea. That is, I don't know, nor couldn't tell what I sold in any one month, or one year, nor in the whole time, for I took no account. I sold all I did sell to Messrs. Klein and Blom. I have no recollection of selling to anybody else.

Q What was the average number of prisoners in confinement during that time you have just mentioned; from April, 1872, until April, 1874, (Warden's Report handed witness.) A. The average number in confinement was two hundred and seventy and three-fourths. I presume that is correct, sir.

Q. What was the average number in confinement during the term commencing April 1, 1874, and ending April 1, 1876? A. I see here two hundred and eighty-five and eleven twelfths.

Q. What was the average number. in confinement for the term commencing April 1, 1876, and ending September 30, 1877? A. The number in confinement, shown in this report, is three hundred and seventy two and six twenty-thirds.

Q. Ordinarily these reports were made in September? A. Heretofore they included October. That is, the fiscal term commenced September 30. It has always been up to the first of November, or rather including the 31st of October, and this last report included only to the first of October, or the 30th of September, making really this term but twenty-three months. The average number, to the 30th of September, is three hundred and seventy-two and six twenty-thirds.

Q. The question should be, the average number during the period covered by your first biennial report. Then it will make the answer in accordance with your reports? A. The first number I see, October 1, 1873, is two hundred and seventy and three-fourths. The 1st of October, 1875, average number in confinement is two hundred and eightyfive and eleven-twelfths; round numbers, two hundred and eighty-six. The average number in confinement, September 30, 1877, was three hundred and seventy-six and six twenty-thirds. That is what the reports show, and the make up is the clerk's. I suppose they are correct; that is my impression.

Q. What year, or years, was it Doctor, that you was manufacturing turn-out suits in the Penitentiary? A. I think probably in 1873, and possibly in 1874. I don't remember the date exactly, Senator, I bought a bill of goods at Greenbaum's for the purpose.

Q. Did you ever buy more than one bill of them for that purpose? A. I think I did, probably. I bought some goods from him while we were manufacturing these goods, till we manufactured up what we had, and we had not tailors enough to manufacture all out-going and incoming goods.

Q. What kind of cloth was it you bought and manufactured into these turn-out suits? A. Well, I bought two or three different kinds, three or four kinds, different colors, and different kinds and qualities. Q. Here is a bill of Greenbaum, Schroder & Co., of date, September 5, 1873, there are several items of cassimere there? A. Yes. Q. Was that bought for that purpose; of manufacturing into turnout suits? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were the prices paid him? A. The prices paid are on the bill. I bought cassimeres at $1.50 a yard, and some at $1.10. Those are the prices paid.

Q. Was you buying these turn-out suits of M. Morris, at the same time you were manufacturing? A. No, sir.

Q. There are two bills, Doctor, one of M. Morris, one dated May, 1873, for goods purchased in May, 1875, and the other in November and December, 1873; suits of clothes; what were those suits for? A. Suits and clothing. I see thirty-five hats in one of them.

Q. I am speaking of the clothing? A. I have no recollection of buying them at the time, unless, we bought suits sometimes, for men who go on short notice, going out, pardoned out. We never had time to make suits; and that's the way this come. I presume they were bought, probably, for soldiers, while we had soldiers there; and by or ders, there were pardoned out as high as forty at a time; and I suppose that is why these suits were bought.

Q. I see here, on December 30th, 1873, thirty hats? A. I presume that is the way those were bought.

Q. Are there any other suits there, at other times in 1873? A. Yes, sir; very likely. I don't know, Senator, but my impression is that they were purchased for pardoned men, because when a man was pardoned out we never stopped to make a suit of clothes. Two days before I discharged all the soldiers by order of the Secretary of War, Gen. Ord came in just the day before and pardoned out twenty-five.

Q. Do you say that that is your impression, that those thirty snits purchased from Morris, on the 12th day of December, 1873, were for men pardoned? A. My impression is they were for military men pardoned by Gen. Ord, who had the pardoning power.

Q. Have you any record by which that will appear? A. I think probably there is on some of the books.

Q. What books? A. I don't know. The clerk keeps those things.

Q. From whom did you purchase clothing, turn out suits, prior to the time you commenced dealing with Mr. Morris? A. Messrs. Hesse & Sands.

Q. Of this place? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you manufacture any turn out suits during the year 1874? A. I don't recollect, Senator, whether we worked up that stuff before that or not. I do not now remember.

Q. Here is a bill, dated February 13th, 1874, of M. Morris & Co., for

two suits of clothing purchased December 23d, 1873, and one suit purchased June 24th, 1874, one suit February 5th, 1874, and one suit February 9th, 1874. Was that bill purchased by you of Mr. Morris? A. Well, I don't know whether purchased by me in person or not, Senator. I have purchased a great many suits of clothes there by sending for them, sending the measures down, and I don't know whether I went myself for them or not.

Q. Did you purchase turn-out suits in February, 1874, and December, 1873, of Mr. Morris? A. I suppose I did. I don't know. If I was away from home, and a man had to be turned out, I presume he went down and got them.

Q. I mean under your direction. What were you paying for a suit at that time? A. I agreed with him after I dealt a while. We agreed on $17.50, and he has been furnishing me all my suits.

Q. That was when? A. I don't remember the date when we commenced that, but I know that was to be understood, at $17.50, that was to give me a good suit of clothes.

sir.

Q. And that is the price you have been paying ever since? A. Yes,

Q. Never had any other contract? A. No, sir; not since we commenced under the agreement.

Q. Wasn't that as early as 1873? A. I don't remember, Senator, when Morris commenced here. Morris bought out a clothing store here, that was here when I was dealing with Hesse & Sands.

Q. That bill shows 1873? A. I think it was in 1873; February 13th, this is. I don't know whether that bill was bought there or not. I don't think that is Morris' handwriting, but I don't know. Q. Look at the back, and see the endorsement?

A. I don't know.

I don't think that is his handwriting in there, or up above.
Q. In whose handwriting is the endorsement on the back? A.
That looks a good deal more like his handwriting. The other, I am
satisfied, is not Morris' handwriting.

Q. At that time he had clerks? A. Yes.

Q. At that time the firm was Morris & Co.? A. I don't know. That is not Morris' handwriting. I presume, Senator, that we could get at these things, the suits of clothes, by seeing the men I have turned

out.

Q. What I want to find out is, whether you were manufacturing? A. That bill was for manufactured goods.

Q. I see here bills for 1874. Here is February, March, April, May, June, and July, during all the months of 1874? A. That I have bills?

Q. Bills that you got of Morris? A. I think very likely you will find all that while I was manufacturing. You will find all the goods I bought of Morris were for pardoned men. Then we never made a suit for pardoned men. After I got his pardon, I took his measure and went down town and got a suit of clothes.

Q. Do you know how many men were pardoned out during the year 1874? A. No, sir. I had pardons from the Governor, and from the Secretary of War and Gen. Ord.

Q. Have you any means of ascertaining? A. I think I have.

Q. I would like to have you do that. A. My clerk can do that.

That is a part of his duties, and he keeps run of that. My recollection is there is a note made, "pardoned," either by him or the deputy, and I guess you will find all these were for pardoned men. Now, that thirty suits there, you will see, I feel very confident they were for soldiers.

Q. Here is a bill of Greenbaum, Schroeder & Co., for a large amount of cassimere, bought January 6th, 1874. For what purpose was that used? A. For turn-out suits. All this class of goods that I bought, I bought for making turn-out suits.

Q. Here is a bill of date January 15th, 1875, in which there are 625 yards of cassimere, at $1.25 a yard. What purpose was that used for? A. I bought those bills, you know, for turn out goods, at different times; those cassimeres, canvas, coat linings, and flannels. The flannels were probably for turn-out shirts.

Q. Did you manufacture their turn-out suits during the years 1873, 1874, and 1875? A. I think we did some. I don't think we did all. I don't remember how many. When we had help enough we generally did, and when our help run short it was nothing but prison labor, except the one man we had to do the cutting and fitting, as it were.

Q. I see on this bill dated January 6th, 1874, that you paid (and January 15th, 1875,) then $1.25 per yard? A. $1.25?

Q. Yes; and here is a bill of July 18th, 1874, 450 yards, at 75 cents? A. A difference in quality.

Q. You did not, then, furnish the convicts with the same quality of goods? A. No; I don't do it to day.

Q. Generally you paid the same price, $17.50, for coat, pants, and vest? A. I sometimes got suits that cost more than that, $17.50. I turned a man out on a pardon, the other day, a large man, and the suit I got cost more than $17.50-cost.

Q. Then, I understand you, that if the suit is only worth $10 you pay $17.50, and if it is worth $25 you pay $17.50? A. Yes. I give him the measure, and he goes through and gets me a good suit of clothes. The agreement was, and I have many a time got suits that cost more than $17.50.

Q. Hasn't there been a great reduction in the price of clothing since 1873? A. I think there has.

Q. Yet you never made any other contract with this man, Morris? A. No, sir; that is the agreement we made.

Q. How long was that agreement made for? A. I don't know that it was made for any particular time. The most reduction made in the prices has been made in the last two years.

Q. You stated this morning that the hats you got the convicts when you turned them out, cost about fifty cents apiece? A. Some times when I have bought them I have had to pay more, some times less. I bought a lot in Keokuk at 37 cents.

Q. How much more? A. I think I have had to pay as high as $1. Q. Do you remember from whom you purchased the $1 hats?

A.

I don't know. I don't know but from Mr. Morris. I bought some from a firm of hatters in Burlington. What I bought was at Burlington, here, and Keokuk. My first I bought in Keokuk, from Vorhees; I think it was in Keokuk.