If you buy a novel you may take that novel to your home. You may read it to yourself and to your family, and get all the amusement, recreation and cultural benefit that the book may offer, but you cannot take that novel and make a motion picture of it because that is putting it to a public and profitable and commercial use. Mr. DEEN. You have answered the question; I am satisfied. The CHAIRMAN. Would you go right ahead for the benefit of the rest of the committee? Mr. BURKAN. That right to make a motion picture of that novel for commercial uses belongs to the author. Mr. DEEN. I agree with you. Mr. BURKAN. So the author can go to a motion-picture company and say, "You can buy my novel." Say Rex Beach sells The Toilers for $20,000 or $10,000. Along comes a man who would like to make a dramatization of it, to show it upon the legitimate stage. He goes to Mr. Beach and he says, "I want to buy your stage rights," and Mr. Beach sells those. Then a newspaper comes along and says. "We would like to publish that in serial form", and they have to pay. If your theory were correct, the moment Mr. Beach published that novel and the moment you pay $1.25 for the novel you would have the right as a private citizen, although it was sold to you for a private use for your own home use and that of your family and every visitor of your family, to sell it to the newspapers for serial purposes; you may want to make a motion picture of it for commercial purposes; you may want to dramatize it, or translate it, or do other things. But that the law does not allow. Now, I am going to answer the question Mr. DEEN. You have answered it. Mr. BURKAN. All right, but the committee should know. Let us say I write a song. I sell it to you, and you can play that song in your own home to amuse yourself and your family; but you cannot put it to a commercial use for the purpose of making a profit out of it. That is a right that belongs to the man who created it, to whom Congress gave that right under the constitutional mandate that the Congress shall have the power to encourage the sciences and the arts by giving to the author the exclusive right to his writings from time to time. If I am a song writer and I write a song, I have a right to put it to any commercial use and the profit belongs to me. If you are conducting a restaurant, you have no right to put it to a commercial use to entertain your customers and attract patronage unless you deal with me. Mr. DEEN. All right, now, Mr. Burkan, one more question. You remember in the newspapers a few days ago the story of Dr. Le Roy L. Hartman, of Columbia University, who had just discovered the painless dentistry proposition? Mr. BURKAN. Right. Mr. DEEN. That seems to have gone like the music, round and round, and everybody is for it. Do you not believe that on the basis of your statement and your attitude on this bill, the Duffy bill, that this doctor ought to say to everybody in the United States and the world that "If you use this process, 100 years from now you have to pay me a royalty on it?" In other words, on the basis of your statement do you not think they ought to do that? Mr. BURKAN. As a matter of fact and as a matter of law, that doctor has the right under the patent laws for 17 years to the exclusive right; but that gentleman is associated with Columbia University. That university paid all the cost and expense of all the experiments, and Columbia University dedicated that to the entire public and the service of mankind. The CHAIRMAN. For the benefit of my colleague, one of the greatest inventions, given by Dr. Banting, is the discovery of insulin. He has not given it to the world. He has had it patented, and it is disseminated through Eli Lilly and other companies, and everybody has to pay for it. It is an individual privilege if a man wants to do that. Mr. DEEN. In connection with the chairman's statement, there is no assessment made on individuals who use it, though. Mr. BURKAN. Oh, yes, every commercial user, every drug concern in America that wishes to use that secret process which is patented, has to secure a license from that patentee and pay him a sum fixed entirely by the patentee. The CHAIRMAN. Exactly. Mr. BURKAN. But in this particular case, Columbia University in the interest of mankind dedicated that to the public and said, "We will not patent it." Mr. DEEN. In other words, you ought to give it to the country. Mr. BURKAN. They gave it to the country. Mr. DEEN. All right. Mr. BURKAN. But bear this in mind, that Columbia University thrives and lives because there are a great many generous persons in these United States who make contributions to the university. Its properties are tax free; and it is doing a great public service. But neither the Government nor any generous-hearted persons supports Mr. Hill, or supports the members of the association. They have to live. They have families, they have children, and they are entitled to be paid and paid decently and fairly for the contributions they make to the cultural improvement of this country. Mr. DEEN. I have just one more question of Mr. Burkan and two or three more of Mr. Buck. All right, Mr. Burkan, one more question: You say Columbia University was behind this and paid the expenses and all of that? Mr. BURKAN. That is right. Mr. DEEN. You remember Dr. Crawford W. Long, who discovered ether and got nothing for it, had no university behind him. a great discoverer in the medical world. Mr. BURKAN. I will answer that. Under our law The CHAIRMAN. In the first place, there is a doubt today in the medical profession whether Dr. Crawford Long discovered ether. We believe in the north that it is Dr. Morton. Mr. DEEN. Mr. Chairman, I will not argue with you. Mr. BURKAN. Mr. Deen, do you believe that American men and women should write songs and devote their lives so that these tavern keepers might make money off of them, and the broadcasters make money out of them, and the song writers should not participate in those profits? Is that your theory? Mr. DEEN. Mr. Burkan, I will answer your question. Mr. DEEN. Just a minute. I am a newspaper publisher and editor and also have some copyrights. I believe in organizations for farmers, for laborers, for musicians, and for writers, composers, and authors. I stated in my radio talk that your society-not a corporation but an association-is a valuable one. Mr. BURKAN. You did that. Mr. DEEN. But there is such a thing as organized minorities always defeating an unorganized majority, and you know now that the greatest threat to this country is the combined threat of organized minorities. Mr. BURKAN. Who is the organized minority? Mr. DEEN. Just a minute. I believe in organizations. I do not think your society ought to work for nothing. I do not think your members ought to work for nothing. I do think that it is unfair for minorities or for just a few people, for instance, I will say the Liberty League. I do not think the Liberty League ought to get 20 percent of the sum total of everything in this country. I do not know that they do. Mr. BURKAN. I am not a member of that. Mr. DEEN. I am not, either, but I do not think any of you ought to do it. Now, Mr. Burkan, one other thing. Mr. BURKAN. I would like to ask one question before I proceed. Mr. DEEN. I am asking you, though. In other words, "You're telling me." The question is this: The Ford Motor Co., for instance, sells two automobiles. A man in Washington buys one for a pleasure car. His brother buys one for a taxi. One man uses the car for pleasure and for a good time. The other man uses his car to try to make a living. He is performing for profit. Mr. BURKAN. Oh, no, he is not. Mr. DEEN. Just a minute. He has bought that car and paid for it. Mr. BURKAN. That is right. Mr. DEAN. He is using somebody's patented processes. Those processes have been patented. He has bought them and paid for them. Should he as a taxi owner continually pay a royalty to the owner of the patents? Mr. BURKAN. It has not the slightest application to this case, because Mr. DEAN. It is a perfect parallel. Mr. BURKAN. No, it is not. Let me answer you. Does that driver get the right to manufacture taxis and use Mr. Ford's patents? That is the question. Does he get that right? Mr. DEAN. The people who use your music have a right to Mr. BURKAN. Oh, no; the right to ride in the car is one thing, but does the man who buys that taxi get the right to use Mr. Ford's patents and go into competition with Mr. Ford and make motor cars? The CHAIRMAN. Just a minute. On that point, since it is a patent point, let me call the attention of Mr. Burkan to the fact that when Mr. Ford makes his automobiles he can charge anything he pleases for the automobile. Mr. BURKAN. Absolutely. The CHAIRMAN. And no one can stop him. Article 1, section 8, paragraph 8, of the Constitution says Congress shall have the power to promote the useful arts and sciences by securing to every author and to every inventor for a limited number of years exclusive right to his writings and his discoveries. The law that was passed by Congress in 1909 in regard to compulsory license for use on mechanical devices takes away the exclusive right and makes an author get only 2 cents for a phonograph record, 1 cent of which goes to the author and one to the publisher. That has never been done in regard to any patent. Mr. BURKAN. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. It is a compulsory license, and nobody stands for compulsory license. Mr. PERKINS. May I make just a suggestion? Mr. DEEN. I am asking Mr. Burkan a question. Mr. PERKINS. It is to help you, Mr. Deen. It is that Mr. Burkan informed the interrogator that it is always a question of reproduction. Mr. BURKAN. That is what it is. That is what I said. The man who buys a taxi does not get the right to go out and make taxis. Mr. PERKINS. And reproduce them. Mr. BURKAN. And use Mr. Ford's patents. He gets no such right. In other words, when a man buys a song he gets the right to use that song for his own private purposes, but he cannot put it to any commercial use without taking into account the man who created it. Now, Mr. Deen, I must answer you. You in your speech spoke about the minorities, the unorganized minorities, did you not? Mr. DEEN. No; the organized minorities. Mr. BURKAN. Do you not know the most powerfully organized group in these United States is the National Association of Broadcasters, of which organization every broadcaster in these United States is a member? Mr. DEEN. I hold no brief for them. Mr. BURKAN. No, no; but you talk about an organized minority. Now, let us see. The Hotel Men's Association Mr. DEEN. I hold no brief for them. Mr. BURKAN. Has a national association, State associations, county associations, and city associations. The restaurants have State associations, county associations, and local associations. They are the most powerfully organized minorities that I know of. You take your telegrams; who paid for the telegrams? They all came from the same source. They came out of the funds from these organized groups. Furthermore, we will show you the war chests that have been raised for this very legislation. We will show you the contributions that were made. In your speech you talked about organized minorities. We are going to show you the funds that were raised for the purpose of deluging you with wires and telegrams designed petitions for the purpose of passing the Duffy bill. The organized minorities, if you please, have paid every nickel. Let me read from this confidential paper. It will take me only a minute. The program of the National Association of Broadcasters is threefold: First, litigation; second, legislation in the form of the Duffy bill; and third, the setting up of a separate publishing organization to furnish them with music. Here is what they say. This is not my report, this is from the National Association of Broadcasters' report issued on the 18th of February 1936: Large contributions were sought from and made by independent stations, as well as by the networks and levy, for the carrying forward of the program of which this was an integral part. Now, what about the organized minorities? Who paid for the telegrams that you got? Who paid for the letters and for the circulars, and who is paying for the lobbyists who have been around these halls throughout the months? And who is paying for the men who are going to stand before you and tell you, "Take out the $250 clause"? Do not be misled, Mr. Deen, by this talk about organized minorities. They are the most powerful group. And what about the Power Trust, the invisible hand that wrote the Duffy bill? They are not here. They are not going to be here. But I read you a letter yesterday of the license Mr. DEEN. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman is not answering any question I have asked. I want to ask two or three more questions. The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead and ask your questions. Mr. DEEN. Mr. Burkan, you speak of the telegrams and the deluge of propaganda. Mr. BURKAN. Yes, sir. Mr. O'MALLEY. May I interject there? Mr. DEEN. No. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman refuses to yield. Mr. DEEN. Mr. Burkan said that several times. Is it not all right for people to wire Members of Congress? Mr. BURKAN. It is all right, but when you begin to speak of organized minorities, then it is perfectly all right Mr. DEEN. Answer my question. Is it not all right for people to wire Members of Congress? Mr. BURKAN. Of course it is. I have no objection to that. Mr. DEEN. Here is a list of telegrams from members of your organization, printed in the Congressional Record. Mr. BURKAN. What you got was this Mr. DEEN. Just a minute. There is a telegram here from our good friend, Mr. Buck. Mr. BURKAN. Yes. Mr. DEEN. A lengthy telegram, last August. Mr. DEEN. It was against the Duffy bill. Mr. BURKAN. No. It was for the purpose of not signing the petition to give us the bum's rush and rob us of the chances to tell our story here. Mr. DEEN. I would like to read it to you. It is short. Mr. DEEN (reading): Hon. WILLIAM E. BORAH, United States Senate, Washington, D. C. DEAR SENATOR: Every author, composer, playwright, dramatist, and writer in the Nation is opposed to United States Senate bill S. 3047. This bill revises entire Copyright Act, to detriment of American creative workers, and for |