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Admiral GREGORY. At Mare Island there is a great deal larger percentage of buildings that are permanent.

Mr. FRENCH. The next item is $120,000 for New York. Admiral GREGORY. That is for the navy yard. Most of that is for operating expense and minor upkeep charges.

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Mr. SMITH. I might say that New York puts in an estimate of $40,000 for improvements out of a total of $217,000 for the quarter. Mr. FRENCH. Then in the allocation of $120,000 you are allowing them how much for improvements?

Mr. SMITH. Nothing.

Admiral. GREGORY. Practically nothing; and it is put up to the commandants to expend that money in the way in which they see that they can accomplish the most. It is perfectly obvious that they have to use nearly all of it for operating only, and there is little left for anything else.

Mr. FRENCH. The next item is for Norfolk, $100,000. Admiral GREGORY. The same general remarks apply to all of these stations, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FRENCH. To all on the Atlantic?

Admiral GREGORY. Both; all over.

Mr. FRENCH. The same as to Philadelphia, $105,000?

• Admiral GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRENCH. The same general statement would apply to the Washington yard, where you are asking $75,000?

Admiral GREGORY. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRENCH. The Washington yard, being an ordnance yard, receives its money largely through the Ordnance Bureau? Admiral GREGORY. For operation; yes, sir.

Mr. FRENCH. Then why would the amount need to be so large in your bureau as $75,000 per quarter for upkeep alone?

Admiral GREGORY. Because we handle in that yard the upkeep items practically the same as we do in the other navy yards. The fact that the Washington Navy Yard is an ordnance yard, doing work under the Bureau of Ordnance, makes it necessary to get all the funds for operating from that bureau. That is, their output is that which pertains to the Bureau of Ordnance, but we handle the rest of the work-the upkeep of the structures, and so on. In an industrial navy yard-New York, for example-the funds for the operation of the yard are contributed by the Bureaus of Engineering, Construction and Repair, and Ordnance for the output, and the part that we do is comparable in that yard with what we do in the Washington yard.

REPAIR WORK BY YARD LABOR AND CONTRACT

Mr. FRENCH. What factors govern in the letting of jobs by contract or doing the work by yard labor?

Admiral GREGORY. In general, the funds under the appropriation "Maintenance" are applied almost exclusively to yard labor work. Occasionally we will have an extensive repair, which is chargeable to this appropriation, made by contract, when it is of a character that the yard is not equipped to perform. When it comes to special appropriations for public works, new construction, and extensions, that in general is done by contract and not very very often by yard labor. But even that is done by yard labor if the yard is properly equipped

for it and there is ample time and all the other conditions are favorable.

Mr. FRENCH. Even in such cases as that you have your own estimate, so that you know whether or not the price that is named in the bids is as reasonable as you could put it through yourselves?

Admiral GREGORY. Yes, sir. As a rule the nature of the work indicates whether we can do it by yard labor or by contract. It is perfectly obvious, for example, that if we are to have a big amount of dredging to do and there is no dredge at the yard we have to contract for that work. If we are to build a big pier, such as at Puget Sound, the yard is not in a position to do that work by yard labor. because it involves very special apparatus, appliances, and floating facilities which the Government does not possess. So we would do that by contract. But repairs generally are done by yard labor.

MAINTENANCE

Mr. FRENCH. We now take up the specific item for maintenance. where you are asking $6,750,000 for 1926, as against $6,217,500 appropriated for 1925, and $5,650,000 for 1924. Before referring to the allocation of the moneys, I notice some new wording. Will you indicate to the committee just what the effect of the new wording is!

PASSENGER-CARRYING MOTOR VEHICLES

Mr. SMITH. The only new wording, Mr. Chairman, relates to the matter of the purchase of passenger-carrying motor-propelled ve hicles or automobiles. It provides authority in the Secretary t purchase 2 vehicles at a cost not to exceed $2,500 each: 10 at a cost not to exceed $1,500 each, and 20 to cost not to exceed $500 each On page 42 of the book we submit a statement of the present condition with reference to automobiles, indicating that we have now 151 vehicles in use, 25 in storage, and 12 that are loaned to various ac tivities which are mentioned, making a total of 188. On the following page 43-and it is also published in the Budget Book-is a list showing the cars in use, the place where used, the amount of money allowed for annual operation and repairs, and the purpose for which the vehicle is used.

Mr. FRENCH. The estimates are made upon the basis of a sor: of contemplated need rather than a definite or apparent need?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRENCH. And upon the principle that an automobile, after it requires a certain percantage of its value for upkeep, had better le disposed of?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is entirely right.

Mr. FRENCH. Where will these first two cars be used?

Mr. SMITH. That has not been determined. It will depend upor the conditions which exist at the time the funds become available. Mr. FRENCH. Where do you use that type of car generally? Mr. SMITH. At all of the navy yards and stations. The sevenpassenger car is assigned to each of the various commandants. Mr. FRENCH. At the 11 different stations?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; to them and to a number of other stations also, just as shown on the list, starting on page 43. For instance, at Annapolis, a seven-passenger car is assigned to the Superintendent of the Naval Academy.

Mr. FRENCH. Then, as to the other 10?

Mr. SMITH. They are for purposes which we class, perhaps, as of secondary importance. They are principally cars assigned to navy yards in addition to the cars assigned to the commandants. They are cars assigned for general purposes. They are cars held for assignment to any officer or employee whose official duties require him to use a car.

Mr. TABER. What do these items for the maintenance of cars include?

Mr. SMITH. For the larger cars it includes the pay of the civilian chauffeurs. The pay of civilian drivers is from 57 to 65 cents per hour, or $4.56 to $5.20 per day, which amounts to $1,427.28 to $1,627.60 a year, depending upon location.

Mr. TABER. How many of those civilian drivers do you have? Mr. SMITH. I have not that information tabulated but it can be inserted.

Mr. TABER. I wonder if you can take this statement on page 43 and supply that information as an addition to it.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I will take that up and supply the information for the hearings. As a general proposition all of the larger cars require civilian chauffeurs. The smaller cars are generally operated by the officer or employee who happens to use it.

Mr. TABER. For instance, at Balboa you have $1,300 for operating a Dodge sedan for general use.

Mr. SMITH. That car is assigned to the commandant of that district, which is the fifteenth naval district. It does not include the pay of a driver, except possibly at odd times. On some occasions they might use a driver and on other occasions not.

Mr. FRENCH. What are the types of cars that you plan to buy? Mr. SMITH. In the $2,500 allocation we thought that we could probably get something like the Buick sedan, which is probably as good a car for the money as can be obtained.

- Mr. FRENCH. To whom would these cars go?

- Mr. SMITH. That has not been determined as yet. It would depend upon the conditions that exist at the time the funds become available.

Admiral GREGORY. We would like to furnish them to the commandants of the navy yards, the commander in chief of the fleet, the Secretary, and the Assistant Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. FRENCH. What would the second type, or the $1,500 car, be? Mr. SMITH. The cars that we bought under the $1,500 authorization in the present bill were Rickenbacker cars. We took competitive bids. Any purchase of cars would be under competitive bidding. After the bids are received, they are referred to our engineers who analyze them. The five cars bought under the existing law, or under the appropriation for the current year, were Rickenbacker 5-passenger cars, costing $1,500 each, although the list price was more than $100 above that.

Mr. FRENCH. What is your percentage of cost for the overhaul of a car, beyond which you feel that it is not economically wise to go? Mr. SMITH. I would say that if the overhaul of a car costs more than 50 per cent of its original cost, it is not an economical proposition-that is, where that cost in any one year is more than 50 per cent of its original cost.

Mr. FRENCH. Is that the practice usually followed outside of the Navy?

Mr. SMITH. I do not know what that is.

Mr. OLIVER. I wish you would give us a statement showing the total number of cars for the maintenance and upkeep of which we are appropriating funds. I would like to have the statement divided so as to show the number of Cadillacs, Pierce-Arrows, Fords, etc.. then give us a statement to show how long these different cars have been in the service; let us know the number of chauffeurs that you employ, and the average amount paid to those chauffeurs; where the chauffeurs are employed, and, also, give us the amount that you estimate will be required for the repair, upkeep, and maintenance of the old cars that you have heretofore listed. I would also like to have a statement showing the last overhaul expense incident to those cars.

Mr.. SMITH. We receive a semiannual report which gives a de tailed statement of the expenditures-that is, so much for cost of damage to cars, so much for repairs, so much for body repairs, and all other details. It will be very easy to compile those reports wit reference to these cars covering any period of time you desire.

Mr. FRENCH. In your list of automobiles, I notice that you have quite a number of such cars as Peerless, Packards, Cadillacs, etc. As I understand it, most or all of those cars came down from the war in 1918.

Admiral GREGORY. Yes, sir; all of them.

Mr. FRENCH. They were transferred to the Navy Department from the Army, or were purchased at that time.

Admiral GREGORY. Some of them were transferred from the Army and some purchased by the Navy.

Mr. FRENCH. It also appears that the upkeep of many of those cars, considered either upon a mileage basis or upon the basis of the cost per car, is very high. I wonder if some statement could be made touching your situation in reference to cars that would possibly help us in working out a program under which we could maintain the necessary cars at a cost that would be more satisfactory to the Department, and to the Treasury, also, from the standpoint of expenditures. I would be glad if you would make a general statement to the committee touching that matter.

Admiral GREGORY. I would like to invite the attention of the committee to the fact that for several years following the war (19201924, inclusive) there were specific injunctions annually which made it impossible for the Navy Department to purchase any new passengercarrying automobiles. We were required, therefore, to continue in use the automobiles which came to the Navy Department either by purchase or by transfer from the Army during the war period. We felt, and have felt for three or four years past, that we were keeping in commission certain cars the cost of the upkeep of which was excessive, but, because of the need for their use, we have been required to pay for that upkeep because we could not purchase

new ones.

We succeeded in the last naval bill-that is, the one providing for funds for the current fiscal year-in getting the first authorization for the purchase of new cars since June 30, 1919. That has made it possible for us to purchase a few (25) new ones, and as we do not intend to increase the number of cars assigned, it will permit us to put out of commission an equal number of cars, the cost of upkeep of which has become excessive, and which we propose to do i away with.

At the present time I am of the opinion that there is not a car - remaining in the naval service that was purchased during the - war time that is really worth its upkeep, and that they should be - sold. In our presentation to the Budget, therefore, we recommended that authority be given the Navy Department in this bill under consideration to purchase new cars to replace about 80 per =cent of those passenger-carrying vehicles. The Budget has not - approved of that in toto, and has approved only a partial purchase, which is shown in this bill. I am of the opinion that certainly the _ full authority approved by the Budget should be given to the department to purchase new cars, in order that we may scrap a corresponding number; but I feel that if we could replace all the old cars, the cost of maintenance of which is excessive, it would be economy to the Government.

Certain members of the committee have criticized the high cost of upkeep and the high allowance made to certain stations. We - will insert in the record a statement as to just how the costs are divided, as between garage rental, pay of chauffeurs, repairs, general operating expenses, etc.

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There are certain costs which we know are excessive, and the reason they are excessive is that we are forced to keep certain of these 'old cars in commission far longer than they would be if we could have the privilege of putting out of commission and retiring and replacing with new cars certain cars now in use. We know that many of these figures are high; they are too high; but it is because we are required to keep those cars in commission. They are needed in the service.

I believe that if we should replace every one of those old war-time cars with cars of a good grade-we do not have to have Packards and Cadillacs, but if we had cars, say, of the Buick class, which would be ample for our purposes, and from that down, depending upon the needs of the various places-we would make money in the end by substituting them for all those old war-time cars.

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Mr. BYRNES. What do you mean by the words "in reserve on this list of automobiles?

Admiral GREGORY. There are certain cars that are not needed for routine service that is, in number-but we have to keep them in reserve for unusual demands and because so many of the old wartime cars are giving out, and while they are under repair we have to put others in their places. We would not need to have anywhere near as many in reserve if we had good cars to operate.

Mr. OLIVER. Admiral, will you supplement the statement which you made a few minutes ago by inserting information showing the number of cars that you will retire because of your purchase of new cars with appropriations that have been made; the number of the cars that you will, unless additional appropriations are given to purchase new cars, be required to keep and maintain; and the total cost of maintaining those cars, giving the items that enter into the cost of maintenance?

Admiral GREGORY. Yes, sir; we will insert that. In general I can say that for every new car that we purchase we will dispose of an equal or greater number. It may be that we can dispose of more cars in number than we actually get, because it will not be necessary for us to keep so many in reserve.

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