mendation on the subject during the period of negotiations. On the other hand, it is possible that members of the committee may desire to make inquiry touching certain facts that may exist in connection with the gun elevation situation.

I understand that in the speech that was delivered by Senator Hale in the Senate on May 23 last the Senator presented data touching gun elevations, ranges of guns, etc., and I have understood that the data were checked over by officers of the Navy Department and found to be accurate.

Secretary WILBUR. That is correct, Mr. Chaiman.

STRENGTH, SPEED, CALIBER, AND RANGE OF GUNS, ETC.

Mr. BYRNES. Mr. Secretary, what I want put into the record, for the information of the House, is a statement showing as nearly as you possibly can the strength of the three fleets; and I understand that you have submitted a statement, as one of the exhibits, which gives that information.

I want to know whether you are prepared to make a statement as to what effect the carrying into execution of the program provided for in this measure now pending in Congress would have upon the ratio; and in asking that I wanted to know whether you had taken into consideration, not only tonnage but the speed of the ships that we would then have in commission, the range of the guns, the broadside power of the vessels, and every other unit entering into the fighting strength of the various battleships that would then be in commission under the treaty.

Secretary WILBUR. Let me answer that in two or three sections. In the first place, as I have pointed out, the treaty ratio is in relation to capital ships. The General Board of the Navy in studying the question of light cruisers has figured that by the addition of 22 light cruisers, as I remember it, although we would not have the same number that Great Britain would have and they would be of different tonnage and different armament, we would be practically put on a parity in that line. So we would have parity then in light scout cruisers. We have already a parity in tonnage of battleships.

The question of the effect upon the relative strength of the navies, of gun elevation, and of size of guns-the caliber, I mean, and also the length of the gun, which enters into the problem is really worked out tactically by such organizations as the Naval War College. It is not a thing that can be put in exact figures, and it is not contemplated in the treaty ratio. Those questions were expressly eliminated by consent as not a just basis of comparison of the fleets. I think I am correct in quoting those who participated in that negotiation.

What we are doing, as asked by Congress from time to time, is to advise them of the elements of superiority of other ships with a view of increasing our efficiency by similar additions, Take the blisters. They may save a ship attacked by a torpedo, whereas without them the ship would be sunk. So far as I know, there is no ratio by which you can compare a ship with and without a blister. You simply know that one may be sunk by a torpedo and the other probably would not be.

I do not know that that is a fair answer to your question. Mr. BYRNES. What I want to know is this: As to the blister that may be true. As to the caliber of the guns, though, upon our battleships as compared with the battleships of the fleet of Great Britain. for instance, I think that would give us a little fairer test as to relative strength, the question of speed, and questions of that character. which I think the layman might consider in arriving at a conclusion as to whether or not we have, with the maintenance of 18 battleships. a battleship fleet equal in fighting strength to that of Great Britain. Could you put into the record a comparison of the speed of the various ships that are maintained by Great Britain and the United States and a comparison of the guns?

Secretary WILBUR. Yes, sir; that speed is already in the record. Mr. BYRNES. And the caliber and range of the guns; is that in the

record?

Secretary WILBUR. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNES. In Senator Hale's speech?

Secretary WILBUR. Yes, sir; it is in Senator Hale's speech and also in the other material. You have every element. It is just a question of putting it together and arriving at a general conclusion. That is a difficult thing to do.

ADDITIONAL SCOUT CRUISERS TO EQUAL STRENGTH OF GREAT BRITAIN

Mr. BYRNES. Am I correct in understanding that by the construction of the scout cruisers provided for in the pending bill our cruiser strength will then equal the cruiser strength of Great Britain? Secretary WILBUR. No, sir.

Mr. BYRNES. How many will be needed?

Secretary WILBUR. Fourteen, if I remember correctly.

Mr. BYRNES. You would require the authorization of 14 additional battle cruisers?

Secretary WILBUR. Pardon; me; those are not battle cruisers. They are light scout cruisers. They are not armored. They depend for their protection on their great speed and on a comparatively light armament-8-inch guns. Six-inch are the ones we have now.

Mr. BYRNES. Did you submit to the Budget Bureau or to the President a proposal for the authorization of these cruisers and the other craft which you now say it would be necessary for Congress to authorize in order for us to have and maintain a navy equal in strength to that of Great Britain?

Secretary WILBUR. No. The bill as now pending in the Senate was submitted to the Budget Bureau and approved. We have not asked any legislation for the additional scout cruisers necessary to bring us up to a parity with Great Britain.

Mr. BYRNES. Then if the Congress should enact this bill into law and provide for what the Navy Department has asked, you would still lack 14 cruisers of equaling the cruiser strength of Great Britain?

Secretary WILBUR. If I remember the number correctly.

Mr. BYRNES. Did you ask for any additional authorization for the construction of any additional ships, submarines, or aircraft carriers?

Secretary WILBUR. We have an authorization already for submarines.

Mr. BYRNES. All that you need in order to enable you to equal the fighting strength of Great Britain in submarines?

Secretary WILBUR. Of course, on submarines you will realize that we are in quite a different situation. We have a great preponderance over the other powers in number of submarines. As I pointed out in this discussion, for operation from our coasts we have a preponderating submarine power. What we are needing now are submarines that can accompany the fleet, and we need mine-laying submarines. Plans have been prepared in pursuance of an act of Congress for another submarine and are ready for submission to Congress.

Mr. BYRNES. That is already authorized?

Secretary WILBUR. Yes. What we want now is appropriations to begin the construction of these ships that are already authorized. Mr. BYRNES. Really, all that you need in the way of authorization, then, to enable you to equal the fighting strength of Great Britain, is your cruiser strength-your 14 additional cruisers which you say you have not asked for?

Secretary WILBUR., Yes, sir.

:

Mr. BYRNES. If Congress should appropriate money for the other ships that have been authorized, you contend that by the authorization and appropriation for the 14 additional cruisers you would then equal the fighting strength of Great Britain?

NEED OF INCREASING COST OF AIRCRAFT CARRIERS

Secretary WILBUR. No. We need in addition to those authorizations the authorization increasing the limit of cost of the two aircraft carriers that are building, and an authorization for the construction of one or two additional aircraft carriers.

Mr. BYRNES. Would that still bring you within the limitation as to aircraft carrier tonnage?

Secretary WILBUR. Yes.
Mr. BYRNES. One or two?

Secretary WILBUR. Yes. Of course, what we are presenting to the Congress is a building program that we think is a possible program. We would not desire suddenly to begin the construction of an enormous number of light cruisers, but we feel that the orderly development of the service will be accomplished by the modernization of our ships, by the construction of the light cruisers and sub-' marines that have been or will be authorized when this bill now pending is passed, by the addition of aircraft carriers and submarines as requested, and by the construction of aircraft which are being provided for in the appropriation bill. I think that covers it in a general way.

APPROPRIATION REQUESTED FOR CONSTRUCTION AUTHORIZED

Mr. BYRNES. Mr. Secretary, would you mind putting into the record somewhere a statement as to what the Navy Department asked the Budget Bureau for in the way of the construction of ships already authorized?

Secretary WILBUR. I think I have the correct data here. It was $750,000 each for the two aircraft carriers that are now building. That is in addition to the money already available, which with the $750,000, I understand, will be the limit of appropriation until the authorization is increased. There was included $469,000 to complete the V-1, V-2 and V-3; $3,425,000 for the V-4 (that is barely commenced); $50,000 to complete the fire control system on the Colorado and West Virginia, and $1,000,000 each for two new submarines: a total of $7,444,000.

These items are included in the budget which has been submitted to the committee.

Mr. BYRNES. Then the Bureau of the Budget granted your request for construction?

Secretary WILBUR. Yes. These are all requests granted.

Mr. BYRNES. Do you mean requests granted or what you asked for?

Secretary WILBUR. Let me say there that this was handed to me by the budget office of the Navy Department just as I came in. in response to my request for an analysis of the budget now pending before you. As to whether or not that includes everything that was asked, I could not tell without checking it. But you have the data, Mr. Chairman. You have a complete statement, in tabulated form, of everything asked.

Mr. BYRNES. What I want to find out is this: The Navy Department is contending that Congress has not appropriated sufficient funds to enable us to maintain the treaty ratio. I want to ascertain from the Secretary what the department has asked for, regardless of what the Budget Bureau has granted. If there is any complaint made as to our failing to maintain the treaty ratio, whether the Navy Department did not ask for it, whether the Budget Bureau. having received the request, denied it, or whether it is the Appropriations Committee, or whoever it is, let them take the responsibility and defend it as they deem wise and proper; but let us find out what the complaint is. I read in the papers every morning about the condition of the Navy and the failure of Congress to provide for it, and I want to know what has been asked for and what has been granted by the Budget Bureau, so that we can discuss this matter intelligently.

Secretary WILBUR. You have before you, gentlemen, as you know. a tabulation showing the amounts asked and the amounts approved by the Bureau of the Budget, and the whole naval appropriation bill. We do not ask the Budget for the approval of items which have not yet been authorized by Congress. Consequently there has been no request for appropriations for the additional expense necessary to complete the two aircraft carriers. There has been no request for any appropriations on this increase of the Navy bill now pending in the Senate.

ORIGINAL ESTIMATES AS SUBMITTED TO BUDGET BUREAU

Mr. BYRNES. I understand, Mr. Secretary; but I would like to have put into the record-because if the committee has it, I have not seen it what the department asked the Budget Bureau for in

ts original estimate. You have already answered that as to the tems for which you have no authorization, no request has been nade of Congress for legislation authorizing those particular items. Secretary WILBUR. Exactly.