enactment of this law, that business conditions in the country are in a chaotic condition in some parts of the country right now. There is no question about that. Agitation has done it all, and nothing else. It is not the rates of duty. The agitation has done that.

Mr. LENROOT. On the contrary, I have the view that a tariff commission will safeguard business interests rather than disturb them; for if you have a tariff commission, so long as the Republican Party is in power and we have the protective system we know that that tariff commission will ascertain the facts, and that no Republican majority in Congress is going below, in applying tariff rates, the facts ascertained by that commission. It is a security for business interests. On the other hand, if the Democratic Party is in power, and you have the theory of tariff for revenue only, that tariff commission is just as necessary for that party, and those facts are just as necessary for you, if you are going to intelligently apply them to the tariff for revenue only;

Mr. LONGWORTH. It seems to me Mr. Fordney's criticism would be justified if the commission was to have any powers of recommendation.

Mr. LENROOT. Yes; I might agree with him then.

Mr. LONGWORTH. But so long as it does not have those powers I do not see how it can interfere with business.

Mr. FORDNEY. I will say this as an illustration of my opinion. I may be wrong. Right now we have a Tariff Board. Right now we have the magazines and newspapers of the country full of riffraff about the woolen schedule. The magazines and the press have been full of riffraff and misstatements of facts; and because of the President's speech at Winona, Minn., last fall in which he said that he was not fully satisfied with the woolen schedule, the woolgrower and the wool manufacturer are in holy terror right now that that board is going to recommend (and that the President will send in that recommendation) the revision of the woolen schedule, which will paralyze the industry. That industry is partially paralyzed to-day on account of it.

Mr. LONGWORTH. The board can not recommend.

Mr. FORDNEY. Certainly it will to the President and the President will recommend it.

Mr. LONGWORTH. The board has no power to recommend.

Mr. FORDNEY. What it will recommend to the President perhaps you and I will never know.

Mr. LENROOT. Of course, there is a wide difference of opinion as to the justice of the present wool schedule.

Mr. HILL. As to the effect or extent of the tariff commission, you are aware of the fact that there has been a tariff commission in France for years?

Mr. LENROOT. Yes.

Mr. HILL. Have you heard of any destruction of business because of the advisory character of that commission?

Mr. LENROOT. No, sir; and the same in Germany.

Mr. HILL. I do not think anybody else has. They are revising the tariff all the time there by single items.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not agree with Mr. Lenroot or with the other gentleman that a tariff commission is going to get rid of this agitation. I do not know whether it will have any tendency in that direction

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whatever; but I believe if we can adopt between the two Houses a rule by which whenever there is an amendment to the tariff it shall be confined to a single schedule or paragraph that that will stop the general agitation.

Mr. LENROOT. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that is a desirable thing to maintain. This other business I am not enthusiastic for. I am perfectly willing to have it and to throw all the light on that subject that I can; but the other matter I would like to see brought about. I have had hope ever since the last meeting of the conference committee on the tariff that that thing would be done and that a rule would be adopted. I have been personally in favor of it for a good many years. It is not any new question. It was agitated in 1872. There was a very elaborate report against it at that time in the Senate, but I have always believed, as I said this morning, that only germane amendments in the Senate were intended by the framers of the Constitution of the United States. That is what saves panics in France. They do not go into a general revision of the tariff. They take up a few items at a time and decide upon them, and that does not interfere with industries generally. If we can adopt that in the United States, if we can have a practice between the two Houses governed by rules, that will stop this eternal smashing of things when we have a tariff agitation and the general revision of it.

Mr. LENROOT. The only agitation, then, I think, will be on the question, so far as the country is concerned, whether we are to have protective tariff or tariff for revenue only.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do not think the United States Senate could be expected to yield its powers to amend our bill as they have done; but I want to ask you this: If we adopt a rule in the House-in the House alone that limits amendmends to the schedule reported by this committee, so that no other amendments could be effected, do you not think it would have the effect, if the House had the nerve to stand up for its own bill, of accomplishing the desired result, even if we do not get a joint rule with the Senate?

Mr. LENROOT. If we could not get a joint rule, I would like to see the House alone adopt it; but I would like to see a joint rule.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do not suppose you expect that, do you? Mr. LENROOT. Well, I understand that a very eminent gentleman at the other end of the Capitol said in a speech this afternoon that he was in favor of that very proposition.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Your bill, as I understand it, does not create a commission in the sense of an advisory board?

Mr. LENROOT. Not at all.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. But merely a board of experts to obtain information?

Mr. LENROOT. Yes, sir.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Í do not think the Ways and Means Committee of the House can get too much information, if it is honest information, on these questions.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. I suppose the real work of the commission will be to ascertain whether the profits of the manufacturers are excessive

or not.

Mr. LENROOT. No; they will form no conclusion as to that. They will get the cost of production.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. The other question that I wanted to ask you was this: Your bill makes this board report directly to the House of Representatives?

Mr. LENROOT. As originally introduced, yes. I do think that the President should have the same right-it is not found in the bill at present to call upon this board for information. I do think Congress should have the prior right of controlling this commission, with reference to the reports and the investigation of schedules, over the Executive. It is the business of Congress to deal with this question primarily.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Does your bill provide for the appointment of this commission by the President?

Mr. LENROOT. Yes; and I discussed that somewhat, Mr. Underwood, while you were absent. I feel very strongly that we can not possibly expect 391 Members of the House, or, if there is joint action, of the House and Senate, in selecting the men for this tariff board to give us men of the same qualifications (or make the qualifications the sole consideration) that we would expect at the hands of the President.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions? Is there anything further you wish to say, Mr. Lenroot?

Mr. LENROOT. I want to say one word with reference to the matter of the annual report that has been discussed somewhat. I do feel very strongly that whatever bill may be reported by the committee it should provide for an annual report. I think very much of the benefit of a tariff commission will be in publicity and in the confidence of the country in the unbiased information that is obtained; and I think there would be a tendency, from public sentiment working upon Congress, so far as those facts can not be shown to be false, to bring about the enactment of legislation in accordance with the facts found or based upon the facts found. So that I believe these reports ought to be made annually, and that they should be public documents. My bill does not provide for reporting the testimony, but it protects the manufacturers, I think, completely, with reference to the disclosure of information that may injure their business.

There is one section I want to speak of. Mr. Cobb spoke of it in this bill. It is made the duty of the commission to make investigations concerning the control of prices by a monopoly of any article that is the subject of a tariff rate. I would not insist upon this, but I do think where Congress has information of a given article that is the subject of a tariff rate, being controlled by a monopoly, a more rigid rule should be applied with reference to the tariff rate upon that article than where there is full and free competition. I think that this great agitation that has come up during the last ten years has been because the prices in many lines of industry have been controlled—or at least the people think they are being controlled-by monopoly.

Mr. FORDNEY. They think so?

Mr. LENROOT. Put it either way. Of course, where we do have full and free competition, it makes little or no difference whether our rates are higher than necessary to afford proper protection, because the competition will keep those prices down to a reasonable level; but in the absence of competition it does become a very vital question as to what the tariff rate should be, because the tariff rate

then is the only thing that can keep the prices down to a reasonable level.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Let me ask you one question on that point. When you speak of an article that is subject to a duty, does that mean an article which now bears duty or which by any possibility might do so?

Mr. LENROOT. Might, by any possibility. It is broad enough to cover any article that is subject to a duty.

Mr. HILL. I would suggest that you three gentlemen who have appeared should consult together and agree on some measure. Harmonize your views, and get up a bill that you all three will agree on.

Mr. LENROOT. I think we could easily do that. I should certainly be glad to do that.

STATEMENT OF MR. RICHARD CAMPION, OF PHILADELPHIA, PA.

Mr. CAMPION. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I will not detain you five minutes. I want to say that I am engaged in the woolen manufacture, and have been for many years. I am associated now with it, although I am not running the machinery. In behalf of the men with whom I am associated I want to say that the consensus of opinion is that no further tariff commission legislation is desirable. Many of us-I for one-have been opposed to any sort of a tariff commission or board, because I have believed that the constitutional provision that the House of Representatives should formulate tariff measures was a proper one, and that you have investigated and do investigate as thoroughly as any body of men can investigate. But the one point I want to make is that we believe you have now a perfectly competent board of investigation empowered to ascertain the cost of production at home and abroad as nearly as it is possible for any men to ascertain it, and that to enlarge that board or to appoint a new board under the title of a tariff commission is entirely unadvisable at this time, and would tend to further cause agitation and disturbance, and that, above all other things, the industries of this country need a period of rest and quiet. From the standpoint of the Republican Party, which you gentlemen in the majority represent, it is due from you to the great business industries of this country that you yourselves take no further step until this board. which you have arranged for shall have had a fair trial.

Mr. FORDNEY. And an opportunity to report.

Mr. CAMPION. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. You say you speak on behalf of the men with whom you are associated. Who are they?

Mr. CAMPION. Manufacturers of Philadelphia, and to some extent manufacturers throughout the country. But I am speaking only for some of the larger manufacturers in the city of Philadelphia.

Mr. HILL. You do not speak for anybody outside of Philadelphia ? Mr. CAMPION. No, sir.

Mr. HILL. Do you speak for the carded-wool interests in Philadelphia?

Mr. CAMPION. No; I would not say that.

Mr. HILL. Have you any authority to speak for anyone but yourself?

Mr. CAMPION. Probably yes, and probably no; but I will limit, it, Mr. Hill, to myself.

Mr. HILL. I was wondering whether you had any authority to speak for the carded woolen men in Philadelphia.

Mr. CAMPION. No, sir; I do not speak for them-if you separate the carded woolen men from the worsted manufacturers in any way. I came down here because I was told there was to be a hearing to-day on this subject, which I was glad to attend for the purpose of listening and learning; and I had no thought of saying anything.

Mr. FORDNEY. But you are prepared to speak from a knowledge of the business gained by long experience, are you not?

Mr. CAMPION. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. Of course you have a perfect right to appear and speak for yourself; only if you had authority to speak for anybody else I wanted to know who it was. Are you engaged in the woolen business

now?

Mr. CAMPION. No, sir. I am connected with it. I am selling agent for two worsted-yarn mills. I have been engaged in the worsted industry for about 40 years.

Mr. HILL. I have not any question about that; only I was wondering who it was you were authorized to speak for. You said you were speaking for yourself and the men associated with you.

Mr. CAMPION. Yes. That would comprehend several.

Mr. GAINES. Since you are here, Mr. Campion, I will ask you a question. What is the average profit per yard on worsted cloth? Mr. CAMPION. To answer that question, I would say that I can get one, two, three, or more of the best mills in my neighborhood who will contract for five or ten years for their total output at 5 cents a yard. Mr. GAINES. So that the profit, then, seems to be about the same in the worsted as in the woolen business per yard?

Mr. CAMPION. Yes, sir.

Mr. GAINES. That is all.

Mr. FORDNEY. About how much wool in weight is there in the average yard of cloth?

Mr. CAMPION. That is according as the customer may require. Mr. FORDNEY. The average, I say, of all the goods produced in those mills over there.

Mr. CAMPION. For summer suitings, 11 ounces; and for winter suitings-I do not like to give figures in the presence of Mr. Hill for fear he will check me up for ordinary suitings for winter, from 15 to 18

ounces.

Mr. FORDNEY. In the neighborhood of a pound.

Mr. CAMPION. In the neighborhood of a pound.

Mr. FORDNEY. Then your profit on a pound of wool taken from the sheep's back and put through all of the processes of manufacture would be 5 cents?

Mr. CAMPION. Yes, sir.

Mr. FORDNEY. That is the point I wanted to bring out.

Mr. CAMPION. And as confirmation of the correctness of that, take the figures of the octopus, Mr. Hill, the so-called trust, the American Woolen Company. You can easily get that. Take their total output and their profit, and divide their output by their profit, and you will see how much they have made.