Mr. COBB. That was not the point I was making, Mr. Chairman. The point I was making was that this power of protective tariff is a power of such tremendous and vital importance that it can make or ruin individuals, industries, or communities, very quickly and very directly. That is is the exercise of tremendous power.

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Cobb, you can not rig up any scheme to keep these people that are interested in the tariff from using their influence or arguments, or whatever you please to call them, with anybody that is charged with making a tariff bill, can you?

Mr. COBB. Certainly not. But we can decrease their number and nullify their influence.

Mr. CLARK. Would it not resolve itself into the fact that that large horde of gentlemen who come down here, according to your own statement, by thousands would simply turn their attention to this Tariff Board instead of to the Ways and Means Committee?

Mr. COBB. This Tariff Board, if our idea prevails, is not going to be a board to consider what the duties ought to be. They are simply to collect the facts on which tariff consideration is based. There is a line of demarcation which is very important. The purpose is to have this board sitting here permanently. And I want to draw a distinction between a commission created in the excitement of tariff revision for the purpose of going out and investigating and a commission which sits here all the time steadily and establishes itself in public confidence. If it sits here quietly and permanently and establishes itself in public confidence and gets the data when there is no excitement, when men are at peace, the work can go along and will establish itself, with the support of the country back of it; for instance, our organization of business men, and I may add the National Grange, which, while not a member of our organization, have their president as one of our members, and their action has been along exactly the same line as ours. We are working in harmony

Mr. CLARK. Let me ask you another question. How do you figure out that the people of Massachusetts, Illinois, or any other State can feel that they are any more represented by a member on this Tariff Board than they are by a Member of Congress on the Ways and Means Committee?

Mr. COBB. We feel that we might be too much represented by a Member on the Ways and Means Committee.

Mr. CLARK. What is the difference?

Mr. COBB. Do you mean whether

Mr. CLARK. What is the difference between the nature of these commissioners and the nature of members of the Ways and Means Committee? How are their mental processes going to be any different from each other if they have the same amount of sense?

Mr. COBB. A man who is a trained investigator, or who is put at a certain job, and who feels that he is there permanently, and that that is the place to make his record, has the same feeling that you have seen and I have seen a thousand times, when we have seen some lawyer who has been a violent advocate in the courts appointed to the bench. In one month he is a different man.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Is not the distinction this: That members of the Ways and Means Committee are not only charged with the duty of finding facts but of basing a conclusion upon the facts?

Mr. COBB. Exactly.

Mr. LONGWORTH. And this commission only has the duty of finding the facts?

Mr. COBB. That is exactly it.

Mr. FORDNEY. There are 392 Members of the House of Representatives, coming from every hill and corner of the United States. They ought to know something about the industries of their respective districts, and they do. I claim to know something about the industries in my district.

Mr. LONGWORTH. How about lumber?

Mr. FORDNEY. The lumber schedule has a lower rate of tariff than anything in the bill except fish. How could the Tariff Commission go to my district and get any better information than I could get, or than any other member of this committee could get? What would you suggest as to how they could get the information?

Mr. COBB. I would answer that question in this way: I do not know that it is a direct answer. In fact, I would say that probably the needs of your district you probably know as well as any man that could go there.

Mr. FORDNEY. I ought to. I canvassed it very thoroughly for twelve years.

Mr. COBB. I am not speaking personally, but I will say that in our opinion a majority of the Members of Congress approached action on the Payne bill from the viewpoint of their own districts.

Mr. FORDNEY. Oh, no; I beg to differ with you. The men on the Ways and Means Committee

Mr. COBB. I am not talking about this committee. I am talking about the rank and file of the Members in the House.

Mr. HARRISON. Do you not think that a Member of the House who has to go before the people for reelection every two years is a safer custodian of this great power than men appointed for six years by the President?

Mr. COBB. Absolutely. I would not give the commission any power whatever. There is no power contemplated.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. As I understand, what you are contending for, representing your association, is that Congress should appoint a board of statisticians to assemble and gather facts for the benefit of this committee?

Mr. COBB. Absolutely.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. And that is as far as you want to go?

Mr. COBB. Yes. Well, gentlemen

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Would that be satisfactory to the people you represent, if we were to go that far and no farther?

Mr. COBB. Well, now, do you mean

Mr. UNDERWOOD. To assemble and gather facts and statistics relating to the questions that come before this committee, but not to indulge in advice or conclusions ?

Mr. COBB. Absolutely; not to indulge in advice or recommendations.

Mr. FORDNEY. We have such a commission.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I would like to ask one other question. Does your association stand for the control of the reports and the work of this board by the executive branch of the Government, or by that portion of the legislative branch of the Government in which power has been vested by the Constitution?

Mr. COBB. Absolutely, the legislative branch.

A board created

as the present Tariff Board is will not, in our opinion, accomplish the results required. That is to say, it must be a board that is responsible to Congress, and in touch with Congress.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I agree with you thoroughly in that.

Mr. COBB. And outside of the control of any administration, in so far as its work is concerned.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I want to ask you this: If we have a board that is to gather facts-and I do not think this committee can have too many facts if they are properly assembled and represent the truth, or too much information and they are to be under the control of the legislative branch of the Government, I want to ask you whether you think it wiser to appoint that board by the executive or by the legislative branch of the Government?

Mr. COBB. I think that it is far wiser to have the appointing power in the executive. I think that ordinarily the appointments made by a single responsible executive are more successful, on the whole, than any other system. Well, take for instance the appointment of judges. I think it is, as a rule, better to have the judges appointed than to have them elected, and I think the same would apply to this.

Mr. LONGWORTH. How would it be possible to appoint a permanent board, if that power were given to Congress? The board could only last two years. That is the limit.

Mr. COBB. That is, the power of Congress would not extend beyond that time?

Mr. LONGWORTH. Certainly not. If you want to have a permanent board you must give the power to the President.

Mr. CоBB. Permanence is the important part of it.

Mr. CLARK. Suppose you were to get a lot of fellows in who did not perform to satisfy Congress. How are you going to get rid of them if the President appoints them?

Mr. COBB. We have worked and we have fought for the Civil Service Commission. It is not perfect, but, Heavens, how it has improved conditions. We have worked for the Interstate Commerce Commission. We criticise their acts oftentimes, and do not approve of everything they do, but the work that the Interstate Commerce Commission on the whole has accomplished has been, in our opinion, of very, very great value to the United States. We think the Tariff Commission is largely analogous.

Mr. FORDNEY. We have a tariff board at the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. One moment. It is almost 12 o'clock. I was going to suggest that the committee might come together at half past 1 to ask further questions.

Mr. FORDNEY. I will come at any time. I would be pleased to ask some questions and to get some information on this question. The CHAIRMAN. I suppose there are other gentlemen-I do not know-who desire to be heard on this bill at some future time. We have another hearing before this committee to-morrow, and we could adjourn this hearing until Thursday morning at half past 10 o'clock and go on with it then. Then, without objection, we will suspend here with that understanding and take a recess until half past 1 o'clock. If the business of the House is in such shape that we can do so, and if any gentlemen will appear here, perhaps they can be heard this afternoon.

Mr. COBB. I would like to say that in order to save time it has been decided by my associates that no one except myself would appear on our behalf, in order to make it as brief as possible, and because our testimony would be cumulative.

The CHAIRMAN. Some other gentlemen' have bills that they wish to be heard upon.

(The committee thereupon took a recess until 1.30 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS.

At the expiration of the recess the committee resumed its session. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in order. Mr. Cobb, Mr. Fordney was about to ask you some questions when we took our

recess.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN CANDLER COBB-Continued.

Mr. FORDNEY. Mr. Cobb, I did not want to interrupt you until you had finished your statement that you wanted to make. Had finished your statement?

you

Mr. COBB. I think I had finished, I may say, the general statement, sir, but I had not taken up the question of our belief as to the formation of the commission; and I also had not taken up any consideration of the details of the bill. That was what I desired to do this afternoon; but I will be glad to adopt any course that you gentlemen wish with regard to the matter.

Mr. FORDNEY. I just wanted to ask this, Mr. Cobb. We have a tariff board at the present time, authorized and empowered to obtain information as to the cost of production of any article in this country, and the cost of such like article produced abroad. That was the purpose of the creation of the tariff board, when it was created-to give information to the President so that he might make recommendations to Congress where he found inequalities in the different items in the tariff law. Now, if it is not proposed to give any power to the tariff commission to recommend to Congress or to fix laws, what would be the difference between the establishment of a tariff commission and the present tariff board, in your opinion?

Mr. COBB. The difference is just this: The powers of the tariff board are formed by a provision in the sundry civil bill, empowering the President to appoint "such persons.' I think I am correct in stating that there is no legislative recognition of the existence of a tariff board.

Mr. LONGWORTH. There is, in the Payne law.

Mr. COBB. Excuse me; not in the sense

Mr. LONGWORTH. There is no definite provision for it, but there is an authorization.

Mr. COBB. An authorization for the President to employ "such persons."

Mr. LONGWORTH. That is a legislative authorization, though.

Mr. COBB. That is a legislative authorization; but it is purely a presidential matter. That is to say, it becomes a part of the personal work of the administration and has nothing to do with Congress, which is the power that makes tariffs and must make tariff

bills. Now, the fact is that I personally, and our organization generally-every one of us who has looked into this matter-thoroughly approves of the work that has been done by the present tariff board. We think they have made a splendid start, and we think the President has been very earnest to produce the best results in every way. We make no criticism whatever of the present situation. But that is, as I understand it, entirely subject to the question of an appropriation by Congress from year to year, and the Tariff Board is a part of the executive department of the Government, and it has no direct authorization or association with Congress, which has the duty of levying tariff.

Mr. FORDNEY. The information obtained by the Tariff Board is at the disposal of Congress at any time Congress calls for it. There is nothing in the public records belonging to the Government but what Congress can obtain if it calls for it.

Mr. Cовв. Certainly.

Mr. FORDNEY. But during your remarks a while ago you said that out of several thousand-I have forgotten how many members there are of your organization-one-third of them were protectionists.

Mr. COBB. Oh, no. I did not say that. I said the membership of the Boston Chamber of Commerce was 4,300 members, one-third of whom were protected manufacturers.

Mr. FORDNEY. You are right. That is the way you put it. How many of them are importers?

Mr. COBB. I should say perhaps a quarter. No; not over 20 per

cent.

Mr. FORDNEY. Is it not true, Mr. Cobb, that the average importer is a free trader, and that the manufacturer in this country is a protectionist, as a rule?

Mr. COBB. Of course, that is the tendency of the business of each

man.

Mr. FORDNEY. In the appointment of a board of this kind, in the creation of it, do you think it would be advisable to have a nonpartisan board appointed.

Mr. COBB. I certainly do.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you think men could be found who would have no fixed views upon the tariff.

Mr. COBB. I certainly do.

Mr. FORDNEY. I never met one yet that did not have an opinion on the tariff.

Mr. COBB. I would answer that in this way. I think that the chairman of the present board-I do not know what his political party is but I guess he is what we used to call a mugwump in New England. I know what his training is

Mr. FORDNEY. What is his training?

Mr. COBB. As an economic professor at Yale College. I do not think that his judgment in investigating the facts would be in the slightest degree affected by his opinions.

Mr. CALDERHEAD. You refer to Mr. Emery?

Mr. COBB. Mr. Emery.

Mr. FORDNEY. Do you believe that more correct, better, and more reliable information could be obtained by a tariff board than can be obtained by Members of Congress themselves?