Mr. CLARK. That is the highest authority we have.

Mr. LONGWORTH. Do you regard it as essential that there should be any description of the qualifications of the members?

Mr. GOOD. No; I think that is a detail; and I say that with regard to practically everything in the bill except the naked essentials; that it should be a permanent tariff commission with power to act. The number of commissioners, their qualifications, and matters of that kind are mere matters of detail; but it seems to me with a permanent commission with power to act, its findings would have weight not only with Congress but with the President.

Mr. CLARK. How would it strike you to change the bill so that the tariff commission should be elected by the House of Representatives and made amenable to the House of Representatives, that is charged under the Constitution with originating tariff bills?

Mr. GOOD. I am afraid such a measure would hardly pass the Senate, in the first place.

Mr. LONGWORTH. It would hardly be a [Laughter.]

permanent

board.

Mr. CLARK. Why not? It seems to me, from a hasty reading of this bill, that the chief end of it is to advise the President and executive officers how to enforce a tariff bill. Is that so, or not?

Mr. GOOD. Not at all. The chief end of the bill is to give Congress the facts that it ought to have upon which it would bottom any revenue or tariff measure.

Mr. CLARK. What is the Department of Commerce for?

Mr. GOOD. Well, I do not know. I noticed that this committee. did not call upon it very generously for information.

Mr. CLARK. That is exactly where we got the information about steel and iron. Mr. Underwood says that the report of that department is the most valuable document we have around here, and he knows more about iron and steel than most of us.

Mr. GOOD. I understand that you got some information there. Mr. CLARK. How are you going to get Congress to accept the deductions and conclusions of this commission?

Mr. GOOD. That is a matter for Congress to act upon, of course. Mr. CLARK. Did you know that Gen. Arthur, under a resolution or bill, appointed a tariff commission that went out and roamed around over the country for two or three years and came back and reported nearly every one of them Texans, too-that there ought to be a general reduction of 20 per cent; and Congress immediately proceeded to make a raise of 10 per cent? [Laughter.]

Mr. GOOD. I know this bill is bottomed altogether on a different principle from that under which that commission was appointed. This commission will have no power of recommendation at all.

Mr. HARRISON. How would you meet the situation in case the House of Representatives or the Ways and Means Committee wanted. to revise the woolen schedule, and called upon this tariff commission of yours for information like that, and they replied that under the direction of the President they were engaged in investigating the chemical schedule, and could not give any facts as yet about the woolen schedule?

Mr. GOOD. If I thought that was as serious as you seem to regard it, I would insist on a provision going into this bill providing that the first duty of the committee should be to furnish information to the Congress of the United States.

Mr. HARRISON. There is no such provision in the bill as it reads now, is there?

Mr. Goon. No; there is no such provision in it, but if that is regarded as a necessary part of the bill, I would have no objection to that going into the bill.

Mr. CLARK. Do you know anything about how far this tariff board has gotten that we have had on hand for some time? Has it any information in stock?

Mr. GOOD. I know nothing about the information that that board has collected except the published speech of one of its members.

Mr. CLARK. You did not get much information out of that, did you? Mr. Goop. That is all the information I have.

Mr. CLARK. There is a good deal of general statement in that speech and precious little information.

Mr. Pou. The papers say that their money is about all out, too. Mr. CLARK. That is a pity.

Mr FORDNEY. The bill provides on page 3:

No person who is a Member of Congress, and no person who is in any manner pecuniarily interested in the production or importation of any article or articles enumerated in the customs and tariff law, shall be eligible to hold such office.

What kind of a fellow do you think that would be? Did you ever know a man who had any ability who was not engaged in producing something, if it was nothing more than chickens?

Mr. Goop. Oh, yes.

Mr. FORDNEY. I never did in my life. I have failed to find that fellow yet.

Mr. GOOD. If the Interstate Commerce Commission had been filled with men who were presidents of railroads, the findings of such a commission on the question of the fixing of rates would not have any standing in the country and very little in the courts. If this commission could be manned by men who were neither importers nor persons engaged in manufacture, the findings of such a commission would be better regarded than if it were composed of men who were interested either as importers or as large manufacturers. That is my only thought, and that, again, is simply a detail of the bill.

Mr. FORDNEY. You will agree with me that that commission ought to be made up of the most able men in the country, will you not?. Mr. GOOD. It ought to be made up of a class of men who have a particular power of investigation, and of ascertaining facts. I do not know that it would require eloquent men, or anything of that kind; but it ought to require men who are experts in the examination of testimony, and in ascertaining what the real facts are in a given case.

Mr. FORDNEY. Eloquence would cut no figure as to the fitness of the men there.

Mr. Goop. No.

Mr. FORDNEY. But on the other hand, to go about this country and all foreign countries and compare the cost of production here with the cost of production abroad, and then make an intelligent report to Congress so that it could act upon it, certainly would take men of some marked ability-to make an intelligent and efficient report. Can you find such men in the country who do not produce anything?

Mr. GOOD. I will say to the gentleman that if that clause would mean the putting of weak men upon the commission, then it should be stricken out.

Mr. FORDNEY. I would, too.

Mr. GOOD. There is no question about that. I did not think at the time I drew the bill that it would produce any such effect, but if, in the judgment of the committee, it would produce such an effect, it should be stricken out.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fordney, have you any objection to allowing Mr. Good to suspend now, and to have him go on later? Mr. Cobb

is here.

Mr. FORDNEY. I would be pleased to do that; but I would like to ask some questions a little later.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, Mr. Good, we will ask you to suspend for the present, and we will hear Mr. Çobb.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN CANDLER COBB, PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL TARIFF COMMISSION ASSOCIATION.

Mr. COBB. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I appear here as the president of the National Tariff Commission Association, and I have here a list of our organizations and delegates, which is very complete, although there are a few which are not printed on this list. This shows about 100 boards of trade and chambers of commerce throughout the United States. The organization of the body is that each one of these organizations appoints a delegate. I, for instance, am the vice president of the Boston Chamber of Commerce, and am appointed by the Boston Chamber of Commerce to represent it in this matter.

We met together and elected our board of directors, and that board of directors elected a president, which happened to fall on me.

Now, I want to say a word as to this organization and what it means, because I think it is of fundamental importance in the consideration of this question. The boards of trade and chambers of commerce in this country have been, during the past few years, developing along very important lines. That is to say, we have been going, more than was ever done before, into questions of great public interest. We have been forced to this by the fact that organization and consolidation seems to be the tendency of the times, and it is rather necessary, if we wish to maintain our strength and position in the world-and when I say strength I mean the strength of the rank and file of the business men-that we should get together and consolidate more or less. This has been growing to an extent that has made it a strong organization throughout the country. We exchange views and consider things. We consider questions of this

sort.

What I am getting at is this. Our boards of trade throughout this country have made a study of this tariff question, such as never was made before by any body of men, I think, outside of Congress. That is to say, when the last tariff bill was passed our board of directors decided that one member should be here at all times during the consideration of the bill, simply and solely for the purpose of watching and studying, and seeing what was being done and how it was being done; what improvements could be made, and what it was wise to do. Not that it was any of our business, except to see and help, because

the tariff affects more directly the business interests of the country than anything else.

The result of that investigation by us was communicated to our hundred boards of trade through our secretary, by correspondence,. in a quiet way; that is, there was no blare of trumpets in the newspapers, or interviews, but it was communicated throughout this whole country, so that our information became a matter of common knowledge throughout the business community.

Now, we decided-and this, I think, may be putting the matter very plainly that what Congress most needed was to be protected against us. Members of our boards of trade were coming down here by thousands, literally, and hounding their Members of Congress, and looking after their special interests, nagging men and making all sorts of statements. I will not say that they made false statements, because they are honest men, and they are men, as a rule, who are good business men, but I do say that a great many very exaggerated statements were made. We do not intend to have that done, and we do not want it done, and the control and force of public opinion, the force of our boards of trade, is going to be, in my opinion, the important element to make this thing accepted. That is to say, it does not make any difference, in my opinion, within reasonable limitations what the terms of this bill are. It is the question of getting a body of men whom the business men of the United States feel represent them; so that Mr. So-and-so from Illinois can go there and feel, "These men are here to represent us and look after us."

Now, to give you an exact sample: I, as I say, represent the Boston Chamber of Commerce, with 4,000 members, and a third of those or more are protected manufacturers. I was appointed to take charge of the tariff question, and took up the tariff-commission cause, and at first was met by a general feeling expressed about as follows: "Oh, John Cobb, you are a millennium hunter. That is not the way the thing is done."

My theory has been that if the business men of this country decide that this tariff problem is to be worked out fairly and nobody is going to get any special benefit, every one will be satisfied and the intemperate discussion stopped, and there will be no horde of men coming down here.

I say again that the greatest thing this commission can do is to protect you gentlemen against that very thing. When a man comes to you and says, "My heavens, if my duty is not increased 25 per cent, I will have to discharge 1,000 laborers, and your chance of reelection will be ruined," you can say to that man, "My dear friend, that is too bad; you of course know what your conditions are; you of course are right in it and can prove these statements; you just step over to the tariff board and get them to visé your figures, and then come back to me with the report that those figures are right and correct and I will stand up in Congress and hold out for you 'until the cows come home.""

And that is the point. Get those men away from this thing. I am talking about the men I represent, and those are the men that should be made to feel that they are going to have fair treatment without the necessity of personal pressure.

70470-10- -2

It is not a question of protection. It is not a question of tariff for revenue. This tariff commission is just as much needed on the basis of a tariff for revenue. There is no worse example of the need of a tariff commission in the whole history of tariff than the Wilson bill, passed on a platform calling for tariff for revenue. We needed the tariff commission far more then than for the last bill. That is to say, the question of the tariff is a question which should be decided by the country as a whole, by the different parties placing in their platforms the tariff principle which they believe in. And the country decides by the election of one party or the other what should be the policy of the country. If we decide in favor of a tariff for revenue, we want it. We do not want the Wilson bill. If we decide in favor of a tariff for a moderate and reasonable and fair protection, we want it. I do not want to criticize in the presence of you gentlemen the last bill, because you made it very largely.

Mr. CLARK. Go on; criticize it. [Laughter.]

Mr. COBB. But I do say

The CHAIRMAN. Do not hesitate, so far as this side of the House is concerned. [Laughter.]

Mr. COBB. But I do say that-

The CHAIRMAN. In fact, we would like to hear a little honest criticism.

Mr. COBB. I do say that there are in the bill different schedules having different measures of protection--that is to say, the hide and leather schedule is not based on the same economic basis that the woolen schedule is the measure and extent and basis of protection differs. Now, these things should be harmonized and adjusted. I think you see what I mean. In other words, if every man in this country can feel that when the country decides on a principle it is going to be adopted, and he is going to be treated just as fairly as every other man is, you are not going to have the troubles you have had.

Now, gentlemen, I want to call your attention to what you are doing when you pass a tariff bill. This question of protection was never considered in the Constitution. Revenue is raised under the provisions of the Constitution. Tariff is raised for revenue purposes; but the protective principle which arose afterwards has been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court and is the law of the land.

The CHAIRMAN. I would suggest that you read the title of the first tariff bill that was passed after the adoption of the Constitution. Some of the members that helped to frame the Constitution were in Congress at that time.

Mr. COBB. Well, I do not see any evidence in the ConstitutionThe CHAIRMAN. I am simply speaking of the first tariff bill that was passed.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. That was a 5 per cent tariff bill.

Mr. COBB. If there was a distinct acknowledgment of the protective principle by the first Congress, Mr. Payne, I am at fault.

The CHAIRMAN. Read that bill and see whether you discover anything of that kind in the title itself.

Mr. CLARK. The chairman does not distinguish between a revenue tariff and a protective tariff, I understand?

The CHAIRMAN. I want to find out what my friend does stand for.