Senator DONNELL. For instance, in the National Advisory Cancer Council, that is provided in the Public Health Service Act, is it not, Mr. Ewing?

Mr. EWING. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. I observe at page 11 of the booklet which contains Public Law 410, which is the Public Health Service Act, this language:

SEC. 217. (c) The National Advisory Cancer Council shall consist of the Surgeon General ex officio

By the way, it does not say "or his representative”—

who shall be chairman, and of six members to be appointed without regard to the civil-service laws by the Surgeon General with the approval of the Administrator. The six appointed members shall be selected from leading medical or scientific authorities, who are outstanding in the study, diagnosis, or treatment of cancer.

Do you now regard that as a very wholesome provision in that act? Mr. EWING. I still think there ought to be laymen on it.

Senator DONNELL. Possibly so, but as to the considerable number of the members of the Council dealing with heart disease, it looks preferable, does it not, Mr. Ewing, that most of them ought to know something about heart disease? Don't you think that is true?

Mr. EWING. Yes, Senator. I would not have believed it possible until I got into this job how much medical politics there is. We Democrats and we Republicans are just pikers when it comes to politics. These doctors have got us pushed off the boards. For instance, in our own branch, in making the present grants in the Federal Security Agency, the Public Health Service, they have worked out a very complete group of study sections, and, for instance, a request comes in for a grant for heart study or study of some other disease, they have a study section composed of experts in that field. Even that does not work perfectly, Senator, because the people that are in that field have got pretty immune to outside suggestions and ideas. They are working in their own little field, and they want to stay in that field, and I have serious doubts whether we could not improve that in some way. For instance, I am not at all sure that, take an application for cardiac grant, whether we ought not to have it passed on by the cancer people or somebody that knows the general field of scientific research-what ought to be done but who are not too closely identified with that particular field. I think we are learning by experience down there, and actually I have got a study under way right now to see whether we can improve our system there. I do not feel it is perfect today, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. I have no doubt you are right, that there are imperfections. On the other hand, it does seem reasonable, Mr. Ewing, that in the creation of a Council such as this, the duties of which include the following:

Advise the Surgeon General on the conduct of the program of the Heart Institute

there should be some requirements that at least a considerable number of the men on the board should know something about heart programs and heart disease. That is reasonable, is it not?

Mr. EWING. Well, to my mind there certainly would be no objection to that.

Senator DONNELL. I would like to ask you also as to whether or not there is a similar provision or qualification in the National Mental

Health Act, namely, Public Law 487. I call your attention to this language:

The National Advisory Mental Health Council shall consist of the Surgeon General, ex officio

by the way, again calling attention to the fact that there is no option there "or his representative"

who shall be Chairman, and six members to be appointed without regard to the civil service laws by the Surgeon General with the approval of the Administrator. The six appointed members shall be selected from leading medical or scientific authorities who are outstanding in the study, diagnosis, or treatment of psychiatric disorders.

That seems reasonable, does it not?

Mr. EWING. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. It is probably subject to the ought to be some lay assistance coordinated with it. is it not?

point that there That is correct,

Mr. EWING. Well, I do not think the ideal advisory council should be confined simply to psychiatric experts and laymen. I would rather have a broader field of people who are familiar with scientific problems and can see them, but I would like them to be a little more removed from the field, and view them objectively rather than be subject to all the influences that are in that field.

Senator SMITH. Mr. Ewing, would not your thinking lead us to the establishment of a National Science Foundation where you have a division of research into medical science? Would not that be the overall picture you want?

Mr. EWING. Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH. And could we not coordinate heart, cancer, or whatever it might be, to that set-up? We are just thinking in terms of organization set-up, as I know you are, and it has been very interesting to me to have your observations on this.

I agree with you that it would be very valuable to have laymen in these groups.

Mr. EwING. I am sure it is.

Senator SMITH. I do feel with Senator Donnell that they ought to know something about hearts in order to be in the picture, although I assume they would.

Mr. EWING. But I would not make them exclusively heart experts. That is the only thing. And I do not think Senator Donnell feels that way.

Senator DONNELL. No; I am not an advocate of that. I want that clear, but the point I am getting at is that this bill, as it is drawn, contains no qualifications whatever for these 12 members, except that they shall be leaders in the field of fundamental science, medical science, education or public affairs, which, as I see it, might permit, as far as the language of this bill is concerned, men acquainted with labor troubles, or legal troubles, public-land matters, to be members of the council. There is a vast variety of public affairs that has nothing to do directly or indirectly with heart disease; and the point I am making, so that we may have it before us at any rate in our consideration, is the fact that it does look to me personally that at least somebody ought to be required on the board who knows something about the subject under consideration. I think you regard that as reasonable

too.

Mr. EWING. Yes, sir; and I am sure it would work out that way in practice. You are quite right.

Senator DONNELL. It would be just as well to put it down in black and white; would it not?

Mr. EWING. I have no objection to that.

Senator DONNELL. When you are drawing contracts and documents in the law firm with which you are connected you try to cover the situation as definitely as you can, do you not?

Mr. EWING. Well, sometimes I would rather have it a little vague. Senator DONNELL. Well, maybe so, but if you are trying to protect the interests of the client you would want to put down in black and white what his rights are, rather than to just leave it to somebody's ultimate good humor to decide what they are. That is correct; is it not?

Mr. EWING. It would depend on what I thought would best protect his rights.

Senator DONNELL. I understand, but if you wanted to see that duties were imposed on somebody else in his favor, you would put those duties. down, would you not?

Mr. EWING. Probably, yes sir.

Senator DONNELL. Now, Mr. Ewing, in regard to the duties of this council, I mentioned one of them. There are only two that are recited here in this bill, on page 7:

The council will meet from time to time to (1) advise the Surgeon General on the conduct of the program of the National Heart Institute, and (2) to review and make recommendations regarding requests for grants-in-aid for research, education, and control.

That is very much less detailed and much less specific than the duties required of the National Advisory Mental Health Council and of the National Advisory Cancer Council, is it not?

Mr. EWING. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. For instance, in the National Advisory Mental Health Council there is specific provision that the council is authorized. (1) to review research projects or programs submitted to or initiated by it in the field of mental health and recommend to the Surgeon General, for prosecution under this act, any such projects which it believes show promise of making valuable contributions to human knowledge with respect to the causes, prevention, or methods of diagnosis and treatment of psychiatric disorders; and (2) to collect information as to studies being carried on in the field of mental health, and, with the approval of the Surgeon General, make available such information through the appropriate publications for the benefit of health and welfare agencies and organization (public or private), physicians, or any other scientists, and for the information of the general public. And in the Cancer Council duties, it is prescribed, is it not, in very considerable specifications, section 402, that

In carrying out the purposes of section 301 with respect to cancer the Surgeon General, through the National Cancer Institute and in cooperation with the National Advisory Cancer Council, shall—

(a) conduct, assist, and foster researches, investigations, experiments, and studies relating to the cause, prevention, and methods of diagnosis and treatment of cancer;

(b) promote the coordination of researches conducted by other agencies, organizations, and individuals;

(c) provide training and instruction in technical matters relating to the diagnosis and treatment of cancer;

(d) provide fellowships in the Institute from funds appropriated or donated for such purpose;

(e) secure for the Institute consultation services and advice of cancer experts from the United States and abroad;

(f) cooperate with State health agencies in the prevention, control, and eradication of cancer;

(g) procure, use, and lend radium as provided in section 403.

I am reading from the Public Health Act, Public Law 410, SeventyEighth Congress.

Senator PEPPER. Will the Senator allow me right there, since he is putting in the qualifications of these various advisers to make an observation?

Senator DONNELL. These are the duties.

Senator PEPPER. S. 2385, which is the National Science Foundation bill of which the distinguished chairman of this subcommittee is the principal author, provides in section 3:

MEMBERSHIP OF FOUNDATION

(a) The Foundation shall have 24 members to be appointed by the President, by and with the consent of the Senate. The persons nominated for appointment as members (1) shall be eminent in the fields of the basic sciences, medical science, engineering, education, public affairs; (2) shall be selected solely on the basis of established records of distinguished service; and (3) shall be so selected as to provide representation of the views of scientific leaders in all areas of the Nation.

I just wanted to put that into the record because it does not seem that the requirements for membership are not more particularly stated in the bill.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Ewing, the bill S. 2215 prescribes that there shall be, in addition to the Surgeon General and these other officers or their respective representatives, 12 members appointed by the Surgeon General, with the approval of the Federal Security Administrator. Now I see that in covering the National Advisory Mental Health Council and the National Adivsory Cancer Council the provision is that the number there, in addition to the Surgeon General in the case of the latter, and in addition to the Surgeon General in the former also, shall be six. What is the reason, if you know, Mr. Ewing, why there are 12 provided in this bill?

Mr. EWING. No, I do not know.

Senator DONNELL. I notice also that in stating the obligations and duties of the Council under S. 2215 the requirement is that the Council will meet from time to time. That is rather indefinite, is it not, on page 7, where there is no obligation for them to meet even once a year under that language? Is that correct?

Mr. EWING. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. Do you not think it would be well that the Council be required to meet once a year at least in performance of their duties?

Mr. EWING. No objection to that.

Senator DONNELL. I notice also down at the bottom of page 6 that the figure of compensation to each appointed member of the Council is "not exceeding $75 per day." My understanding is that in the case of some of these other like councils the rate is from $25 to $50. Is

this just a reflection of the increase in cost of living, or do you know? Mr. EWING. I do not know, but I certainly think it ought to be uniform. We cannot have one council getting one amount and another council getting another. What the amount should be I do not know.

Senator DONNELL. I will not trouble you further except to call attention to one other provision at this time, Mr. Ewing. I refer you to pages 10 and 11 of the bill, where the Administrator is authorizednotice that is the Federal Security Administrator, the office which you now hold—the section provides:

(f) the Administrator is authorized to fix the compensation for the services of specially qualified scientific and professional personnel concerned with research activities of the National Institute of Health and the National Heart Institute, provided that the rates of compensation for positions established pursuant to the provisions of this paragraph shall not be less than $10,000 per annum nor more than $15,000 per annum.

Is there any limit in this bill, so far as you know, as to the number of these $10,000 and $15,000 a year positions that are prescribed? Mr. EWING. There does not seem to be.

Senator DONNELL. No; and do you think it advisable that the Administrator should just be authorized to fix the compensation between $10,000 and $15,000 himself, and that there should be no limit on the number, or do you think there should be some provision in the bill, or in the appropriation measure perhaps ultimately, which would make some restrictions on that?

Mr. EWING. Certainly there is no reason for not putting some restriction in the bill.

Senator DONNELL. I think that is all. Would you like to ask some questions, Senator Pepper?

Senator PEPPER. No, not now.

Senator DONNELL (presiding). Mr. Ewing, we are very grateful to you for coming. Senator Smith has stepped out for a few minutes. and asked me to preside.

(Senator Smith subsequently submitted the following reports to be incorporated at this point in the record :)

EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT,

BUREAU OF THE BUDGET, Washington 25, D. C., April 7, 1948.

Hon. ROBERT TAFT,

Chairman, Committee on Labor and Public Welfare,

United States Senate, Washington 25, D. C.

MY DEAR SENATOR TAFT: In response to your request of March 1, 1948, for the views of the Bureau of the Budget regarding the provisions of S. 2215, a bill to provide for research and control relating to diseases of the heart and circulation, the following comment is offered.

* *

Much of the basic authority which would be provided in this bill already exists in the Public Health Service Act. Section 301 of that act already gives broad authority, including unlimited appropriation authorization, for financing both intramural and extramural "* research, investigation, experiments, demonstration, and studies relating to the causes, diagnosis, treatment, control, and prevention of physical and mental diseases and impairments of man." This section also authorizes the establishment and maintenance of research fellowships. Section 314 (c) of the act gives broad authority (within a $30,000,000 annual appropriation limitation) for making grants to States for maintaining adequate public health services, including grants for the training of personnel for State and local public health work.

To aid in planning and administering the Public Health Service research program, consultative and advisory services are provided to the Surgeon Gen