However, we have found that the old tools and I might add here, that in our suburban county, we have used all of the planning tools available, we have had zoning and subdivision control for many years, we have the usual building codes, we make requirements of subdividers to provide curb, gutter, streets, sidewalks, and so forth, but we have found that the old tools of zoning and subdivision control are not able to cope with this great population pressure. We have concluded that the only way to guard the population of the future that we are sure we can expect is by the acquisition of open spaces either through outright acquisition of the entire open space or through the acquisition of easements and things of that nature.

We, therefore, feel that a bill such as this would be of great assistance in helping these future highly developed, high density suburban areas to guide the population in a well-planned and orderly manner.

I would like also to add that the National Association of County Officials does not have an official policy statement on title II of this bill since no questionnaire on that matter was sent out, so that these remarks do not extend to that provision. It is my own feeling, however, that this provision would be extremely helpful to communities such as the one that I represent.

I would like to express our appreciation for your foresight in considering a possible solution to this national problem of preserving an adequate amount of open space, open land for community improvement purposes.

I will be more than happy to attempt to answer any questions after my colleagues have completed. Thank you very much.

Mr. GRAY. Next is Mr. Edward Connor, from Wayne County, Mich.

Mr. RAINS. All right, Mr. Connor, come around.

STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD CONNOR, SUPERVISOR, WAYNE COUNTY, MICH.; DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTY OFFICIALS

Mr. CONNOR. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. I might say as a preliminary that this is the first time I have ever had the honor and opportunity of appearing before a congressional committee, and I must say that it quiets to some degree the apprehension that I might otherwise have when I find that the distinguished Congressman from my own district is present. She has been kind to me in the past, and I imagine that maybe I can expect the same kindly treatment today. It helps me get started.

Mr. RAINS. I would like to say, Mr. Connor, that she is a valuable member of our committee. I am sure she will look after your interests and the interests of the people she represents.

Mr. CONNOR. With your permission I will be quoting you back home.

Mr. Chairman, we have a statement that with your permission I would like to file. It seems to me that I might be most helpful in your deliberations if I might recount some of the experiences that we have had that have led to some of the conclusions that we have arrived at.

Mr. RAINS. The statement may be included and you may proceed.

Mr. CONNOR. In order to do that, it is necessary first perhaps to give some background of both the area represented and some of the efforts that we have been making in the last several years to meet some of these problems, and I am confining my remarks only to that portion of the bills that concern themselves with the problem of public facilities and the providing of those public facilities. The area that I represent-and I have a kind of unique position, because as councilman of one of the larger cities of the county I am familiar with the problems facing large metropolitan cities. At the same time I come from a growing metropolitan area that today covers at least six counties, spreads over 41,000 square miles, has a population of 414 million people that has grown better than 900,000 people in the last 10 years, which, if our population forecast have any meaning, will grow by another 112 million people in the next 2 years, and will probably result in the urbanization-and I am defining "urbanization" as square mile area-an urban area that will hold about 7,000 people, it will mean the urbanization of what is now rural land in this metropolitan area to urban land of 300 square miles in the next 10 years.

Now one of the efforts that we have made in meeting this problem is through the county units of government organizing what is known as the intercounty supervisors committee. This effort is based on the idea that local government is important, that it is important in America to keep as much government as possible close to the people. It is based on the thesis that people should first do for themselves all that they can possibly do. It further is based on the theory that using existing tools of government through working cooperatively together it is possible to accomplish many of these metropolitan projects that are needed through that cooperative effort, everyone working toward a common plan.

That has been in existence for the past 6 years. In 1945, we organized a regional planning commission. There were only a few in the country, but it ranks among the best. Five out of our six counties have county planning commissions. The city of Detroit has a planning commission, and there are 41 other local communities with planning commissions. We are in favor of the public facilities portion of this bill, and about 2 months ago had the privilege of having Mr. Woller, who has this responsibility, of administering our State. He is from our State. He sat down with the various public works officials from the counties and the cities to discuss these problems. In followup to that, a survey was made in the six-county area. This survey, a copy of which I have here- I only have one copy, if additional copies are required they can be made available, but I would like to also submit for the committee this survey of counties and the larger communities within the area, based upon public works, and engineered so that we could actually start construction within 30 to 60 days, is category A, and category B projects that could be brought into construction within 6 months, and category C, needed projects that would take from 6 months to 2 years to get engineered and blueprinted to the point of construction.

This survey, which does not include the needs of townships and of many of the villages and a number of the cities, indicates that we have now a need for $1,200 million worth of construction activity in the public facilities field.

Mr. RAINS. That report may be filed with the committee. It can't be included in the record but it may be filed with the committee, and we will look at it.

Mr. CONNOR. Now, based on that study, and the problems of this area are only typical of similar areas throughout the country, would lead to the further recommendation that while we are in favor of the loan principle and the additional amount included as a step in the right direction, we agree with previous witnesses who have testified before the committee that in terms of a realistic need of the problem that exists today, the total amount is woefully inadequate, and we would hope that it could be increased to at least $500 million or $0.5 billion at this time.

Now, our second recommendation again is based on experience that goes over a period of time. As a director of the State Supervisors Association, 5 years ago we set up a committee concerned with the problems of the economic health of Michigan. This committee held hearings with many different organizations throughout the State, and found whether it was a small community or a large community they all had certain problems in common; one was the retention of industry, second was the problem of obtaining new industry not only for present population needs, the unemployment situation, but also in terms of this growing, expanding population that appears to be inevitable, and it was indicated that one of the problems that was needed was to provide the facilities without which you cannot have either the homes or the industry, at least in a healthful condition.

We have had experience with that. The lack of one sewer in Wayne County a few years ago was affecting the growth and development of 72,000 parcels of land. Our State health commission had stop orders on any future construction because septic tanks and the like were polluting the water in the entire area.

The construction of an $8 million interceptor sewer opened up the entire area for expansion, and it is that type of expansion that is definitely needed today. Now, this committee found in order to be realistic about this, interest rates had to be lowered. It is true that the larger community can secure loans, the city of Detroit gets them at about 3 percent, the county of Wayne at about 4 percent, but to do this job realistically we would suggest that effort be made to reduce that interest rate down to about 2 or 22 percent, if possible. We have taken steps in our State where the faith and credit of the counties can be put behind such loans as well as the cities, and this helps, but it may be that further extension in the use of the faith and credit of the Federal Government might help in this direction.

Now we also found another very important need, and that is that when you build an expansion in anticipation of growth and development, sewer and water projects which otherwise could pay for themselves out of revenue have a lag period at the beginning of somewhere between 5 and 10 years, where the facilities will not pay for themselves. Water and sewer facilities along with roads are particularly needed if this growth and expansion is to be provided for.

We would hope that there would be included provisions that would provide a moratorium at least for the first 5 years on such loans for payment at least of capital costs of the loan, with the costs then to be geared into a repayment schedule based on the revenue return as

it develops, because of increased use and because of actual growth. That would be our second recommendation.

Our third recommendation, based on this same experience, is that along with loans there will be and is a need for grants-in-aid for community facilities. The local governments are unable to go—and this is particularly true in our area, but in others also-beyond what has already been provided and forced on them because of such growth. It should be pointed out that in Wayne County, for instance, we went to the people for a $100 million capital improvement program, $50 million of which was a waterplant which has opened up the whole southwest section of the county. The people approved that and increased their own taxes, the tax on real estate, but there is a limit to what real estate can bear in terms of the cost of local government, and we think that we have gone to the limit of our ability to provide without some assistance, and it may take grants.

Now in addition to that, we feel that these bills should open the door not only to cities and local units of government, but they should provide that counties should have the same opportunity where under their existing structure and laws they are able to do it, to take advantage of such loans in order that the approach and answer may be on a larger area than just the individual community.

Finally, we would like to stress that in the granting of these loans, provisions for grants to planning agencies is extremely important, and certification by local planning agencies that the total program fits within an areawide development plan should be required before such loans are made.

I appreciate very much having had this opportunity to appear before you. And, like my colleagues, if there are any questions I would be happy to try to answer them.

Mr. RAINS. I wish we had time to ask questions, but we are running far behind. Everybody up here has important appointments. We have about 15 witnesses this afternoon, and we don't have time for extended questioning. I would like to ask Mrs. Wilkins one question. Do you mean to tell me that in Fairfax County there are no municipalities at all?

Mrs. WILKINS. There are four towns, but most of the facilities in these towns are provided by the county.

Mr. RAINS. Is that true of Vienna and McLean?

Mrs. WILKINS. McLean is not incorporated, but Vienna is.

Mr. RAINS. I appreciated your being here. I wish we had more time to spend with you. We appreciate your support and will look into your recommendations.

The committee will be in recess until 1:15.

(Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the committee recessed to 1:15 p.m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. RAINS. The committee will be in order. The first witness is Mr. Stuart Davis, president of the First Savings & Loan Association, representing the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

Present: Representatives Raines, Mrs. Sullivan, McDonough, Harvey, and Rousselot.

STATEMENT OF STUART DAVIS, PRESIDENT, FIRST SAVINGS & LOAN ASSOCIATION, OAKLAND, CALIF.; ACCOMPANIED BY JAMES F. STEINER, MANAGER; S. HOWARD EVANS, COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT SPECIALIST; AND HARVEY G. HALLENBECK, JR., ASSISTANT, CONSTRUCTION AND CIVIL DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT OF THE NATIONAL CHAMBER, ON BEHALF OF THE U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE

Mr. DAVIS. I have with me Mr. James F. Steiner, manager of the construction development department; Mr. Howard Evans, and Mr. Harvey G. Hallenbeck, Jr. I am Stuart Davis, president of the First Savings & Loan Association, of Oakland, Calif. I appreciate the opportunity of appearing here today. We have a lengthy statement we would like included in the record, and then I would like the privilege of quoting briefly from that statement.

Mr. RAINS. That is an appropriate procedure. It may be included in the record.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you.

I begin by reference to the President's housing message. It established certain goals for community development which have long been advocated by the national chamber. The President emphasized that the comprehensive planning process should embrace all major activities in each metropolitan area and that citizen participation must be relied upon to help in the accomplishment of community goals.

Obviously the legislation under consideration here today is designed to help in the achievement of the President's goals. Undoubtedly it makes a direct contribution to certain major activities. But there would appear to be other activities to which it makes little or no contribution. In certain aspects we consider that it creates barriers to achievement of the goals of the President.

Before any accurate appraisal of the extent of the contribution of this legislation is possible, careful examination should be made of the major activities likely to be important in the development of most communities. Among the few efforts to make a listing of such activities, is the work of the national chamber. It has a list based on seven pamphlets published as the "Community Development Series." The list was tested and proven to be valid in Erie, Pa., last summer. I should like to have the list inserted in the record at this point.

PROBLEMS OF ADJUSTMENT TO LOCATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES