I still say

illegitimate business out of existence with far more reason. that the quickest and the easiest way for the Department of Justice to strengthen the hands of States' attorneys would be to have a provision such as I have suggested, and then it would curtail this evil to such a point that the difficulties of the local officials would be immeasurably reduced.

Mr. HARTER. I think that the gentleman's suggestion has great merit. Perhaps your hard-working colleagues on the Ways and Means Committee will be willing, at the suggestion of this committee, to give consideration to such legislation.

Mr. WOLVERTON. That is the difficulty. So far as this committee is concerned we do not have jurisdiction to do what I am suggesting, if we had the desire to do it; but I am speaking now of effectual law enforcement. This proposed law is just playing with it, in my opinion; just creating a situation where you will be in court all of the time trying to get to the point of deciding whether there was criminal intent or not in designing or manufacturing or transporting the particular devices. Our experience so far has been that it is almost impossible to use language that would properly define what we are trying to do.

Mr. KEOGH. We do not pass laws that are enforced by States' attorneys; do we?

Mr. HARTER. No.

Mr. KEOGH. So that we are not actually trying to make it easy for States' attorneys, but we are rather attempting to uphold the arm of the United States' attorneys.

Mr. HARTER. Well, as I understood the purpose of the legislation as set forth in the letter sent up to this committee and to the Senate committee by the Attorney General, this legislation is designed to assist the States in overcoming the so-called slot-machine evil, and that is the purpose of the legislation; but it, of course, is a Federal enactment, if this committee sees fit to pass any legislation.

Mr. HALL. Mr. Harter, as to an amendment applying to slot machines, could you not write a definition applying to slot machines in very simple language, as we know slot machines? In other words, why have we gone so far afield? Would it not be very easy to write a definition of "slot machine"-the slot machine which has brought about this whole situation?

Mr. HARTER. Mr. Hall, it probably could be done and I think it could be done through the adoption of the language in clause (b) of the Internal Revenue Code.

The reason for broadening it out somewhat to cover slot machines and similar gambling devices was contained in the statement of the Attorney General who sent this proposed legislation up to the Congress. He said the purpose of the proposed bill is to support the basic policy of the States which outlaws slot machines and similar gambling devices, by prohibiting the interstate shipment of such machines except into States where their use is legal.

Mr. HALL. If you say "slot machines or similar devices," that definition itself is a pretty good one. Everybody knows what that means. That certainly would not cover these toys; would it?

Mr. HARTER. No. There might be some question as to what is included in "similar devices," but certainly, as far as the toys and many

other purely amusement gadgets and items are concerned, that would be entirely satisfactory to us.

Mr. KEOGH. Mr. Harter, if you include the phrase "or similar devices" immediately following "slot machines," are you not in effect extending that definition in your first suggestion where you insert the phrase "any other manner whatever"?

Mr. HARTER. I meant in the use of that to qualify the preceding language, preceding clause.

Mr. KEOGH. "Any other manner whatsoever" is not qualifying language; is it?

Mr. HARTER. Well, Mr. Chairman, that means any machine or any mechanical device or parts thereof, whether operated by means of the inserting of a coin, token, or similar object, or in any other manner whatsoever.

The reason for the inclusion of that was that, in a conversation that I had with the Justice Department, I was informed a new type of gambling machine, of the slot-machine variety but operated on a different method and through no insertion of a coin, was about to come on the market, and they wanted language that would cover that new machine. What that machine is; how it operates; I do not know. That was the reason for the inclusion of that language.

Mr. DOLLIVER. That is what is called anticipatory legislation; is it not?

Mr. HALL. Well, have we not passed anticipatory language?

Mr. KEOGH. My own observation with respect to the inclusion of that or similar broad language "any manner whatsoever" is that it would seem to lay the foundation for including such devices as you exhibited this morning.

Mr. HARTER. I do not so construe it, Mr. Chairman, and I certainly would not urge the adoption of it if there is any question that it would include nongambling devices.

Mr. KEOGH. And especially in the subsequent language are the words "may entitle the person to receive something." The word "may" is used.

Mr. HARTER. Yes, sir. I believe that is all I have, Mr. Chairman. Mr. KEOGH. Thank you very much, Mr. Harter. It is always a pleasure to have you before us.

Mr. HARTER. Thank you, sir.

Mr. HARRIS. The committee will be glad to hear Mr. O. D. Jennings. Is Mr. Jennings here?

STATEMENT OF 0. D. JENNINGS, PRESIDENT OF 0. D. JENNINGS & CO., CHICAGO, ILL.

Mr. JENNINGS. I can start off, gentlemen, by saying that I told my wife I was going to tell you that I was not a lawyer.

Mr. HARRIS. Would you first identify yourself and give your name and address?

Mr. JENNINGS. I am O. D. Jennings, of O. D. Jennings & Co., at 4307 to 4339 West Lake Street, Chicago.

Mr. HARRIS. You may proceed, Mr. Jennings.

Mr. JENNINGS. The first thing that I want to say is that I am a manufacturer and I have been manufacturing for 43 years and I have

been manufacturing in Chicago for 43 years, and my place of business I would like to show to the committee. My place of business is on one of the main streets in Chicago, on Lake Street, and it is just at about the center geographically of the city of Chicago. Now, if anybody has been molesting me in 43 years, there has never been any record of it. If I have been a violator of the law and if I have been associated with criminals and crooks and different people of that kind, I do not know of it. The newspapers and the records have not stated it. I want to get you acquainted a little bit with our plant.

Mr. HARRIS What do you manufacture?

Mr. JENNINGS. I manufacture different types of coin-controlled machines, including a gaming machine. I am going to show you here some of the types of the machines, and I can show these gentlemen over here that we do make a gaming machine.

Mr. HALL. When you say a "gaming machine," what do you mean? Mr. JENNINGS. I mean what you would call a slot machine.

Mr. HALL. What proportion of your business is the gaming machine as related to the other business?

Mr. JENNINGS. The proportion of the business since the war-we were torn down since the war-probably has been 50 percent of all of the business. We went into war work, and we were fortunate enough to do maybe a little good. They gave us the E flag, and if we had not done something we would not have gotten that. I think it is on my calling card, and I am going to give you one of those. I do not know whether you can be a manufacturer and follow a line, and if you don't make the complete line I couldn't know how you can keep your people at work. There definitely is a market, a legitimate market, for not too many slot machines but for some slot machines, and we do not think about setting up a factory or doing work. We don't think about making a slot machine. All of these machines that we make have about the same principles, and they have parts about the same, and we try to keep them the same. If we were going to use a motor in a slot machine or some wiring in a slot machine, it would be the same wiring and the same lights and the same bulbs that you would have in your home.

In this motor we would not try to use a different motor for a gaming machine, but we would use the same motor we would use for another type of machine. We try to make the one motor answer just as many purposes and go into as many machines as possible. Likewise, any screw or any nail or any tag or anything else that is used, a great number of things, are used the same way. If you get around to gaming machines, you will find in the back of that folder a chart showing the mechanism of a gaming machine exposed in two different pictures. I don't know how many pieces that would be over the shelves of the hardward dealers. What I am getting at, I would like to get a clarification. I have tried to keep my cards on the table, and I have tried to do the right thing in life, and I don't want to go along here and be a bootlegger under some law. If I cannot make gaming machines in keeping with the law of my State and handle them legitimately, I am not going to be a bootlegger. That is a cinch. Mr. HALL. How many slot machines do you sell a year? Mr. JENNINGS. We sell around about 8,000 a year.

Mr. HALL. Would you have a recollection of what is the biggest market for them? Where is the biggest market for them?

Mr. JENNINGS. The biggest market is in the licensed States by far, including the population. About 50 percent of the machines. We have a few foreign shipments. We would have a lot of foreign shipments except for one thing, and that is the general conditions. Our foreign shipments would be many if it were not for that. To give you an idea of the foreign shipments, I think the best distributor I had in the whole world was in Leipzig, Germany, until the last war came along and I had four brothers there that distributed our line, and they had Germany and Czechoslovakia, and they had Poland, and they were real industrious fellows, you understand. That market is no more. If we have a market in Canada, in England, and in France and a lot of other places, they can't use money now, you understand, for the purpose of buying merchandise of the kind we make. The foreign shipments are not so great.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Are you appearing today in favor or against this legislation?

Mr. JENNINGS. I am appearing here against the legislation, Congressman.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Will you give your reasons why you feel Congress should not pass this legislation?

Mr. JENNINGS. I gave my reasons why I am against this legislation, for the reason that I just enumerated. That is in connection with parts and things. I don't think that I could run my business at all, and I don't think that I could make my other things that I do make, and I don't think that I could continue in business. I think that I have sold machines for 43 years to people, and it would be a difficult matter for me to try to keep people out of my repair bins in connection with shipping machines only to legalized States.

Mr. WOLVERTON. What is your viewpoint from the moral standpoint of the question?

Mr. JENNINGS. From a moral standpoint of the question my viewpoint from that point is simply this: It is a problem; it is exactly like any other problem that we have got. It is like the Russian problem or any other problem we have.

Mr. HARRIS. You mean it is a gamble?

Mr. JENNINGS. I do not want to take the time to read you what a Governor of Nevada says here, and I don't want to give you his viewpoint. I think if the people want gambling in their State, they should have gambling or they should have anything else, and I think if they don't want it, they should not have it, and I think that likely you gentlemen are of the opinion that some hoodlums or somebody go along and get these people to permit slot machines being run in different places.

Mr. KEOGH. As was pointed out recently by one who was supposed to be an expert on the subject, no machine, whether intentionally designed for gambling or otherwise, could be actually used for gambling unless the local police authorities suffered it.

Mr. JENNINGS. No machine could be used in any locality. I told this to a gentleman who was a Congressman and who later on became mayor of New York City, and he asked me if I meant what I said, and I don't know that I helped out any, but I told him that no slot

machines can be used in any place in my opinion if the good citizens will keep away from the mayor and keep away from the chief of police and keep away from the sheriff and keep away from the prosecuting attorney.

Mr. KEOGH. Have we not proved that in New York City?

Mr. JENNINGS. You positively have, and when this Congressman left the room, and we were in the room for several hours' time, and I talked with him earnestly like I am talking to you gentlemen, and I hope when I leave here you will feel that I have at least tried to tell the truth, this Congressman said to me, "Mr. Jennings, do you mean what you say when you say that?" and I said, "I positively do."

Mr. KEOGH. You have no desire to sell gambling machines to any place where they are not legal, do you?

Mr. JENNINGS. Here is another situation that enters into the situation, and I would like to show you this folder here. Here is a thing that I believe that enters into the proposition that will answer your question in this way: If you tolerate something in a neighborhood, the good citizens tolerate it, that does not make it legal. In our city many years ago it was against the law to park a car overnight on the streets. I don't know whether they changed the law or not, but most of the cars now that are used in the city are parked overnight. Now, if they tolerate that, I think that there are many places in the United States, and I think that 75 to 90 percent of all of the machines we sell outside of places that are not legal States are sold to clubs, fraternities, religious clubs and clubs of that kind, and I think that everybody in the neighborhood where there is one of those clubs knows those machines are in there. How in the world could 15,000,000 people be in the United States belonging to clubs and not know that there were machines in clubs? Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that you differ with me on that question.

Mr. HARRIS. You are testifying for yourself now?

Mr. JENNINGS. Yes, I am. I am sorry; I don't want to inject anything in here at all that I should not inject into the hearing. If I said anything wrong, it is just through ignorance.

Mr. HARRIS. I am not criticizing; I am just keeping the record straight.

Mr. JENNINGS. That is all right. I just want to put my cards on the table; that is exactly where I want to put them.

Mr. WOLVERTON. If you put your cards on the table and tell me whether you approve of gambling?

Mr. JENNINGS. I don't disapprove of it, Mr. Wolverton.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I am asking you now, do you approve of gambling? Mr. JENNINGS. I would want to make some reservation to say that I did.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Do you approve of gambling in those States where the law prohibits?

Mr. JENNINGS. I approve of it if the people approve of it in localities where they approve of it.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Even though the law of the State may be different?

Mr. JENNINGS. The law of the State may be different, you understand, and I was going to get into that subject by a folder here.

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