the fare that you charge with its inevitable consequence of loss of riders, will reach the point of no return. Senator PROXMIRE. I don't want to detain you, because we are taking too long on this one issue, but it does seem fascinating to me that after regular increases, ending in what 1947 or 1948 Mr. GILHOOLEY. The first increase was 1947. Senator PROXMIRE. You now seem to be frozen at 15 cents and you are taking the position that you apparently can never really get to 20 or 25 cents. If you do, you will lose part of your riders and you will contribute to urban congestion, and therefore you are locked into this level below the rest of the country permanently, coming to us asking for billions of dollars over the years to help you to help you rebuild your subway. Mr. GILHOOLEY. Senator, I think the record will show that what I tried to do was to point up two of the major considerations that were involved, policy considerations, that were involved in dealing with the fare. Whether the fare will go up or not is a matter which is, in part, outside of our control. Senator PROXMIRE. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Senator DOUGLAS. I understand the terrible problems that New York City faces and I am very sympathetic with them. It is a great city; it is the second greatest city in the United States. Senator PROXMIRE. After Milwaukee. Senator DOUGLAS. After Chicago. I am surprised you are bypassing the State government. The party of which you are a distinguished member always emphasizes the importance not only of local government, but of State government. Now the residents of the surrounding counties are very affluent-Westchester County, Nassau County. Suffolk County-extremely affluent, and upstate on the whole is extremely affluent. I don't say the mountain areas, but the cities along the Erie Canal are affluent cities, and certainly Westchester County is affluent. Suffolk and Nassau are affluent. These are strongholds of your party's strength. Have you made an appeal to the residents of these counties and to Governor Rockefeller, that they should assist the city of New York? Why do you bypass the State government, where you have riches beyond the dreams of avarice close at hand. Mr. GILHOOLEY. I would say to you, Senator, that the State of New York does provide help to us in permitting us to charge reduced fares for our schoolchildren. Senator DOUGLAS. Oh yes; that's a great aid. But where is the financial assistance coming from? Mr. GILHOOLEY. Ninety percent of that cost, for those children who must ride more than 1 mile, comes from the citizens of New York State, from the areas that you mentioned. I don't know the figure, I can get it for you. It may be somewhere close to $17 or $18 million a year. Senator DOUGLAS. Every morning I read the New York Times before I come down. It is a great newspaper, and for years I have been reading about the way in which the former mayor of New York, Robert Wagner, would go to Albany and plead with the Governor for assistance, and would always be turned down. And I have been reading this winter of how your able mayor, Mr. Lindsay, has been going to his fellow Republicans asking for aid and meeting a cold reception. Don't you think it is about time that New York State assumed the responsibility for this great city and helped it out, and didn't force you to come to Washington to undermine local government and State responsibility? Now I know that the legislature in times past has been unfriendly because the Republicans, the upstaters, were overrepresented, and the city of New York, by a constitutional provision which the Republicans wrote in in the 1890's, was prohibited from ever being adequately represented in the State legislature. But some of these bonds are being struck off now by the decisions of the Supreme Court and by our action this past week in defeating the constitutional amendment which the Republican Party and some of our erring Democratic brethren supported to overturn the Supreme Court decision. Why don't you go to Albany, look to Albany and the Governor first and then the Federal Government later? We will not deny aid, but we do believe in local responsibility. And I should think the Governor would resent your coming down here to make a plea for Federal aid and turning more or less a cold shoulder upon his benevolence which I am sure would be liberally extended if you could make a proper plea to him. Ι Mr. GILHOOLEY. I have listened to what you said, Senator, and hope you do not resent my presence here pleading on behalf of 7 million citizens of New York, No. 1. No. 2, I may be making a great mistake here, and most lawyers won't do this, but I am going to try it on the blind. There is in this room the chairman of the Chicago transit authority, who was here yesterday pleading for funds for Chicago. I don't know what help the State legislature and the Governor in Chicago give to the Chicago transit system. I don't know whether they give, for example, the amounts that are given to us to underwrite the schoolchildren's fare. I don't know the answer to any of that. It might be interesting. But I suggest to you that we have a right to be heard and we shall come back here Senator DOUGLAS. Oh, certainly you have a right to be here. Mr. GILHOOLEY (continuing). Until we get what we think we should get from this honorable body. Senator DOUGLAS. Why do you shun Albany and the Governor? Mr. GILHOOLEY. We are getting our support from the State, and from the city. Senator DOUGLAS. Do you think you are getting adequate support from the State? Mr. GILHOOLEY. No one shoots Santa Claus, Senator. Senator DOUGLAS. I have heard Santa Claus brought in twice. Please don't use this Santa Claus analogy. The U.S. Government is not Santa Claus and the Democratic Party is not Santa Claus. Mr. GILHOOLEY. Are you asking me if I get enough money-you never get enough money. Senator DOUGLAS. We should try to meet the problems of our people, but these are not voluntary donations taken off a Christmas tree. No Federal Government should think that, but it should help the localities to meet their problems, and the biggest cities are in greatest difficulty. I agree with that. You are a very interesting man, Mr. Gilhooley. And I hope that when you go back to New York, that you will bear tribute to the fact that you regard the Federal Government as benevolent and just as kind and as interested in the problems of the big cities as are State governments. Give such testimony in New York, as you do in Washington. Mr. GILHOOLEY. In the phrase of William Butler Yeats, Senator, "When I am old and gray and full of sleep," I shall remember this day. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Senator DOUGLAS. So live your life that when you are old and gray that you can look back and say, "I was consistent, I bore testimony in September, October and November, to the same things which I urged in April." Mr. GILHOOLEY. I never shoot Santa Claus. Senator DOUGLAS. That is the third time you bring that in. You really prejudice your case when you bring in Santa Claus. Senator WILLIAMS. Mr. Gilhooley, you requested the opportunity to appear and testify. Mr. GILHOOLEY. I did. Senator WILLIAMS. Do you regret that? Mr. GILHOOLEY. No, sir; I do not. I have enjoyed the conversations very much. I appreciate your courtesy, Mr. Williams. Senator WILLIAMS. The downtown, crosstown highway program has been on again, off again. I guess it is off again. What was the estimated cost of that? Mr. GILHOOLEY. I don't have that figure. Senator WILLIAMS. About $100 million. Mr. GILHOOLEY. It was quite high. Senator WILLIAMS. You are building on Sixth Avenue-it is planked over. What is going on? Mr. GILHOOLEY. We are building an extension of our Independent, 6th Avenue line from 53d to 59th Street. Senator WILLIAMS. How much is that costing? Mr. GILHOOLEY. I have forgotten the exact figures. I can supply them. But the exciting things that will happen in New York in the next 10 years, Mr. Chairman are the extensions of our lines to the northern, central, and southern sections of Queens which is the burgeoning borough of our city. We also hope, as the mayor pointed out yesterday, to build an East Side line from Coenties Slip in the Battery to connect with the I.R.T. line at 138th Street and the Pelham line in the Bronx, in order to relieve the overcrowded Lexington Avenue line. There are also improvements we hope to make to extend the I.R.T. system to the furthest reaches of Brooklyn. I amended my testimony this morning, so I wouldn't be here too long, and I didn't read the details. But there are some very exciting plans for subway extension. I feel, very frankly, that if we are able to build these extensions and build them quickly, that we shall be able to bring more people back to the mass transit lines and get them out, or persuade them to come out of their automobiles and come back to us, and off concrete and onto rail. Senator WILLIAMS. How long have you been chairman of the authority? Mr. GILHOOLEY. I am not chairman. I am a member of the authority, appointed by the Governor. Senator WILLIAMS. How long have you been on the authority? Mr. GILHOOLEY. I have been there for 32 years. Senator WILLIAMS. Well, this has been more than informative, it has been almost delightful. Thank you, very much. Mr. GILHOOLEY. Thank you sir, thank you very much. Senator WILLIAMS. We are very grateful for your testimony. Senator WILLIAMS. Senator Tydings has a group of people he wants to introduce to our subcommittee. We are treating you a little better today than we did yesterday. Senator WILLIAMS. We made Senator Tydings wait 3 minutes and 20 seconds yesterday. STATEMENT OF JOSEPH D. TYDINGS, U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND; ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM W. SEIFERT, DEAN, SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING, MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY; B. R. STOKES, GENERAL MANAGER, SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA RAPID TRANSIT DISTRICT; AND PHILIP HELLER SACHS, CHAIRMAN, TRANSIT AUTHORITY OF MARYLAND Senator TYDINGS. Mr. Chairman, Senator Williams, Senator Proxmire, members of the subcommittee: I am pleased to introduce to you this morning three outstanding witnesses in the field of mass transportation. One is a noted academic authority on mass transportation, the second is the general manager of a major mass transportation system, responsible for implementing a comprehensive mass transportation plan, and the third is a public official from my State, responsible for developing a mass transportation plan today. The first witness I am privileged to introduce is Dr. William C. Seifert, associate dean of the School of Engineering, at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Dr. Seifert is a noted authority on mass transportation problems, and is especially knowledgeable and experienced in the area of new and advanced technologies, which hold promise of making the cities of the 1980's and 1990's more attractive places in which to live and work. Dr. Seifert was a director of Project Transportation which developed a plan for the high speed ground transporation system that we recently authorized to run from Washington to Boston. The second witness whom I am privileged to introduce is Mr. William C. Stokes. Mr. Stokes is the general manager of the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District. San Francisco is the only major city in the country, to my knowledge, which has declined to accept Federal highway money and has concentrated instead on rapid rail transit. I recently had occasion to visit San Francisco and had an opportunity to meet with and inspect the plans for the Bay Area Rapid Transit System. I was tremendously impressed. I am convinced upon the completion of this system, it will be a model of attractiveness, efficiency and effective rail transit for many of the other great cities of our Nation to follow. The final witness whom I am pleased to introduce is Mr. Philip Heller Sachs, chairman of the Transit Authority of Maryland. Mr. Sachs is an eminent lawyer in Baltimore, who has devoted a great deal of time and salience, at great personal sacrifice, to bringing about a major mass transportation plan for the city of Baltimore. Under his able leadership, our monmumental city has obtained matching funds from the Urban Mass Transportation Act, to develop a comprehensive study of the potential for mass transportation in the Baltimore area. As I understood it to be indicated yesterday, Senator Williams, I am hopeful the subcommittee in its wisdom will consider my bill, S. 3227, and Senator Magnuson's bill, S. 3061, as amendments to the Urban Mass Transportation Act. I believe, Mr. Chairman, these three witnesses will be able to provide your subcommittee with the basic data and the expert opinions which it will require to make a sound judgment with respect to the merits of these proposed amendments. Senator WILLIAMS. We appreciate that statement and I was most impressed yesterday with your statement advocating the inclusion of your most meritorious bill. I will do what I can. I normally don't sit here, I sit over there somewhere in the full committee. But we welcome you gentlemen, and, of course, know how knowledgeable you are in the field we are discussing today. How are you going to proceed, Senator? Senator TYDINGS. I think Dr. Seifert will speak first and on completion of his testimony answer any questions you might have. Then Mr. Stokes will speak, and we will wind up with Mr. Sachs, the head of the Transit Authority of Maryland. Senator WILLIAMS. All right. STATEMENT OF WILLIAM W. SEIFERT, DEAN, SCHOOL OF ENGINEERING, MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY Mr. SEIFERT. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to appear before this group this morning. I shall present my thoughts on several of the bills which you are considering. To save time I will not make any statement regarding the urgency of doing something in this area of mass transportation. Instead, let me proceed immediately to some of the issues raised by the bills under consideration. I would like to speak in favor of the general concept of extending the Urban Mass Transportation Act of 1964. I would, however, like to emphasize particularly the importance of fostering those ideas which would focus both attention and effort on the development of innovative solutions, on enlarging research and development activities, and on the development of an adequate supply of personnel, highly trained, to cope with the issues which we must face. You, Senator Williams, have in bill S. 2804 indicated the desirability of extending grants to transportation companies who may be facing deficits in providing commuter service. I believe that such grants can indeed be of considerable immediate value. However, I would like |