Mr. BATES. I see.

Colonel HOWARD. But that must still be considered as part of their duty. They can't go to Baltimore or they can't go elsewhere. They have to be on call.

Mr. BLANDFORD. You attempt to limit your engagements so that if these men do not participate in some of them they get an opportunity to go home?

Colonel HoWARD. Yes.

Mr. BLANDFORD. In other words, you might schedule 3 presentations in 1 week?

Colonel HOWARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. BLANDFORD. And you try to give them 72-hour passes on occasion, the same as the rest of the Air Force functions.

Colonel HOWARD. Well, I am afraid I am not real lenient in that respect.

Mr. BLANDFORD. The point is you don't always have 120 menin other words, you have additional numbers in your band so there can be some rotating, some people on leave. They do get leave?

Colonel HOWARD. Yes, sir; we take leave 2 weeks during the spring of the year and 2 weeks during the fall, in which all the men take leave at the same time.

Mr. BLANDFORD. For example, if I am not mistaken, the Air Force played at the VFW banquet at the Statler this year. Colonel HOWARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. BLANDFORD. That was planned well in advance.
Colonel HOWARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Now supposing you are called by a secretary or a general officer or someone to furnish an eight-piece band for a dance that is being given in a semiofficial capacity.

Colonel HOWARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Will you supply that band for that purpose? Colonel HOWARD. That would depend upon the importance of other engagements which we might have that evening and it would also depend upon the legality of it, sir.

Mr. GAVIN. By the rank of the officer?

Colonel HOWARD. No.

Mr. GAVIN. What rank would the officer have to be before he could make a request for the Air Force to participate in this band as a unit?

Colonel HOWARD. It wouldn't be so much the individual officer, sir. Mr. GAVIN. Well, you wouldn't pay any attention to a rank of a colonel that would call up. I mean what rank does a man have to be before he could make a request to participate?

Mr. HARDY. Off the record.

(Statement off the record.)

Colonel HOWARD. No, sir. Let me clarify that. If a major called me and said, "I have an affair which is taking place at the air base of the officers' club"

Mr. BLANDFORD. Let's say it is the Shoreham Hotel.

Mr. GAVIN. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about what we read in the papers about the social events where the Air Force participates and a number of soloists. You know what I am talking about.

Colonel HOWARD. Yes; I do, sir.

Mr. GAVIN. That is why I say: What rank does the officer have to be before he can request a band for such an affair?

Colonel HOWARD. Sir, all of these affairs

Mr. GAVIN. Stay away from the Department of the Air Force. Any entertainment that is given directly to the Air Force, directly, I mean, to the Air Force personnel, is all right.

Colonel HOWARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GAVIN. If it is in the category of the Air Force, it is all right, and we have no objection. But I read about these other affairs and that is what I am talking about.

I

General LEE. Mr. Chairman, let me interrupt here, if I may. think what you are discussing and I would stand corrected by Colonel Howard-but I think what you are discussing and what you read about is primarily semiofficial functions which the Air Force Chief of Staff or Deputy Chief or the Secretary or people of that description must put on-semiofficial functions.

Mr. GAVIN. Yes.

General LEE. And Colonel Howard does not send the whole band. That band is made up of many units which he can pull out and send to these things.

Mr. HARDY. It leads me to this question: How do you distinguish between a purely social function, an official function, and a semiofficial function?

General LEE. Well, I think that would have to depend on the type of entertainment that was required. In other words, if I am just entertaining my friends, that is purely a social function. If I am designated perhaps by the Chief of Staff to entertain the Chief of, shall we say the French Air Force, or some dignitary from one of our NATO countries, I would consider that semi, if not official.

That is what I had in mind.

Mr. HARDY. In other words, you would have to be designated by the Chief of Staff?

General LEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GAVIN. We have been reading a lot about the manpower shortage lately.

General LEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GAVIN. And then when we read about these other affairs, I just wonder about them.

Mr. BLANDFORD. May I say this, Mr. Chairman: On any occasion where any of the service bands goes beyond its semiofficial capacity, Mr. Petrillo will let you know about it in about 15 minutes.

General LEE. That is right.

Colonel HOWARD. Very quickly.

Mr. BLANDFORD. And has already advised the service bands on many occasions as a matter of fact, I think he entered a strong objection to the tours that were being conducted by the service bands. I believe as a result, you are only allowed, is it, 1 or 2 tours a year? General LEE. That is right.

Mr. BLANDFORD. That was only on the basis that it would be a selfliquidating tour.

Colonel HoWARD. That is right.

Mr. HARDY. Mr. Chairman, that leads me to the question, again: Do I understand, then, that we are leaving it to Mr. Petrillo to determine what is official, what is semiofficial, and what is social?

Mr. BLANDFORD. I would say, Mr. Hardy, in reply to that, Mr. Petrillo would have as much to say in the determination of that as anybody, because the musicians union-I don't know the official title for it, but the musicians union have, I believe, worked out amicable relationships with all of the service bands so that they are not in competition with professional entertainers.

Mr. HARDY. Well, you are talking now, I suppose, about the practical effects of what happens. But I am still of the opinion that a determination as to what is official and what type of function a service band would be permitted to perform is primarily the responsibility of the service and not of Mr. Petrillo.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Well, for example, the VFW banquet: Certainly that is not an official function in any way, shape, or manner. It is an organization that is chartered by Congress. But it is not an official presentation of any military department. It can hardly be considered semiofficial.

But in the nature of things, all of the service bands at one time or another have gone to the VFW banquet. Now I believe the Reserve Officers Association had a banquet Friday night in Philadelphia. If I am not mistaken, all of the bands were represented there, or at least two of the bands were represented. Now I don't know how you distinguish whether the Reserve Officers Association banquet was official, semiofficial, or social.

But I would gather that in the nature of things, the professional entertainers of the country do not take exception to that type of a function.

On the other hand, we may have objections when a town wants to put on a ceremony to celebrate its 100th anniversary. There, the musicians union on occasion may object strenuously on the ground that that is more of a function of a local government, in which the Federal Government has no right.

Mr. GAVIN. Has the committee taken a position on matters of that kind?

Mr. BLANDFORD. We took a very firm position with regard to the Marine Corps Band, and in the report also I think we referred to the other service bands, that we would not authorize the use of the Marine Corps Band outside of Washington. The Marine Corps Band is a statutory band, and can't leave the seat of the Government without official action

Mr. GAVIN. Doesn't that apply to all the other bands, too?

Mr. BLANDFORD. No, sir; it does not. The Air Force Band for example can go any place where the Air Force Chief sends it, and the only limitations are funds and the musicians' union. That's what it boils down to.

Is that correct, Colonel?

Colonel HOWARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. GAVIN. Let me ask Commander Wheeler.

The Navy doesn't have a rank comparable for their band leader with the Air Force?

Commander WHEELER. Well, we just haven't found it necessary, Mr. Gavin. It is really not a true military position.

Mr. BATES. Well, Mr. Chairman, since Mr. Petrillo is keeping such a careful eye on this, I don't suspect there is much need for us to pursue the matter further.

Mr. HARDY. Just leave it to him?

Mr. BATES. Yes.

Mr. BLANDFORD. I am not concurring in that position, as far as Mr. Petrillo is concerned, Mr. Chairman. The only thing I am saying is you have a practical problem and that if you are stepping on the toes of the musician's union the services know about it, as a matter of fact know about it in advance of the presentation.

I think you have been compelled to cancel some of your engagements, have you not, Colonel?

Colonel HOWARD. Not with the band here in Washington, but with some of the other bands.

Mr. GAVIN. One question more: How about the Army? What is the comparable rank to the Department of the Army's band.

Colonel MITCHELL. Mr. Hardy, I am not familiar with that.
Mr. GAVIN. I am not Mr. Hardy.

Colonel MITCHELL. I beg your pardon, Mr. Gavin.

Mr. HARDY. Well, we will forgive you this time.

Colonel MITCHELL. I am not familiar with that, sir. I can't answer that question.

Mr. BLANDFORD. On the cost of the band, am I correct that anytime you go out of the city to a function of any description, unless it is purely a departmental function, that the organization that asks for your cooperation must pay the cost of transportation and the cost of the food and subsistence for the band?

Colonel HOWARD. That is right, sir. That even applies, to go further, on our European tour, where we play in foreign countries, where we actually do so at the invitation of the foreign government.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Now, you charge admission for that concert? Colonel HoWARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Where else do you charge admission for the concerts?

Colonel HOWARD. In the States, when we are outside the District of Columbia for a sponsoring agency; yes.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Now, in the States you do charge?
Colonel HOWARD. That is right.

Mr. BLANDFORD. That is where you also get into trouble with the musicians' union, when you start charging for the presentation?

Colonel HOWARD. Ordinarily not, sir. When it is sponsored for such matter as the Lion's Club or probably the Rotary Club or something of that sort, in which it goes to charity completely.

Mr. BLANDFORD. I see.

Colonel HOWARD. The only funds taken out of it are the actual expense.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Now, one other question, Colonel.

Mr. GAVIN. We could all agree on that.

Colonel HoWARD. Yes.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Do the members of the Air Force Band enlist in the Air Force Band, or enlist in the Air Force?

Colonel HOWARD. They enlist in the Air Force, sir.

Mr. BLANDFORD. It is different from the Marine Corps Band. I don't know about the Navy Band.

Colonel HOWARD. We bring them in. They enlist in the Air Force and of course are eligible to be sent anywhere. However, when you assign them to a certain position and they are able to fill that position

Mr. BLANDFORD. Do all enlistees in the Air Force, then, including those whom you have actually talked to in order to obtain the services as a tuba player or something-go through basic training in the Air Force?

Colonel HOWARD. Yes, sir. That is something which had not happened before. Otherwise, you will have a civilian in uniform and then you have a musician who is temperamental, and it is a headache, believe me.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Well, just for the record, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to bring the Marine Corps up again, but bands do participate in combat, because the First Division Band, not by choice but I am sure by circumstance, did become engaged in combat during the war and I am sure that is true of other bands, division bands particularly, who go along with their divisions.

Colonel HOWARD. My assistant conductor, Captain Yesulaitis, took a beachhead with his band during the war, and was decorated for it also.

Mr. BLANDFORD. All right.

Mr. HARDY. I was just wondering if he made the walls fall down by blowing the trumpet?

Colonel HOWARD. I don't think so.

Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman, I don't know what discussion has gone on before, but anything they can get by Petrillo on I would say go ahead and do it. I don't know what the prior discussion has been. I know one thing: They have a mighty good band in the Air Force, I know that. And I am for them.

What became of that sergeant that used to sing a lot, the singing sergeant that used to sing around here, and was a fine baritone? Colonel HOWARD. Bill Jones.

Mr. RIVERS. A big, heavy-set fellow.

Colonel HOWARD. You are thinking of Rabuski, I believe, sir.
Mr. RIVERS. He is with you still?

Colonel HOWARD. No, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. He got a promotion.

Mr. GAVIN. Is there any further remarks about bands?

Mr. Bates?

Mr. BATES. No, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GAVIN. Mr. Hardy?

Mr. HARDY. No.

Mr. GAVIN. We go on, then, to page 78.

Mr. BLANDFORD. Under Director of Maintenance Engineering, we have a colonel who at least has a very honest title of being chief of the ad hoc board. I know there are a lot of ad hoc boards in the Department, but I haven't seen an officer who is actually assigned as the chief of the ad hoc board.

General LEE. Mr. Chairman, I have brought Colonel McCawley, who I believe can discuss that position for you.

Mr. RIVERS. Ad hoc is a legal term; isn't it?