Senator CANNON. Only one operator?

Mr. HARDMAN. Yes. That has been for research purposes.

Senator CANNON. Have you had other applicants or is this the only applicant?

Mr. HARDMAN. We have had no other applicants.

Senator CANNON. What type of requirements have you imposed as a prerequisite to receiving a license? Or have you actually spelled out in detail the requirements up to the present time? Mr. HARDMAN. We haven't spelled those out. In general, however, we have recognized ability to do the job as indicated by the size of the organization, its successful operations at other locations, and its willingness to go along with the insurance provisions that we have asked.

Senator CANNON. Have you imposed as a prerequisite an insuring provision?

Mr. HARDMAN. Until this year, the State was immune to tort cases. That immunity has been dropped. Since then we have not changed our licensing procedures at all."

Senator CANNON. Do you require insurance to be carried by the operator for the protection of the operator and the State, jointly? Mr. HARDMAN. For the protection of the operator and the State we will require insurance.

Senator CANNON. Does it cover only tort claims or does it cover the possibility of claims that might arise by, let's say, a person who might claim he had been deprived of water by the operator causing precipitation before the clouds got to his area?

Mr. HARDMAN. I can't answer that, Senator Cannon. I think maybe Mr. Elliott, when you have a chance to question him, can answer some of those questions. The State has no provision yet in our regulations for requiring any such thing.

Senator CANNON. What is your view on the extent of the Federal programs at this time? Is it your feeling that we would be justified in substantially increasing the Federal expenditures in this area at the present time?

Mr. HARDMAN. Well, this is a shorttime program the State has in mind. Five years is somewhat the limit. It is impossible to pick areas and be sure at the first shot. We think that this program should be continued at no smaller scale than we now have. We would like to see the scale increased a little bit.

Senator CANNON. Of course, what you say about the difficulty of producing results that are capable of definitive measurement is certainly true but we had a very fine example presented in the Las Vegas hearings by Desert Research Institute in the experiments they conducted in Washoe Valley around the Reno Airport. The results were certainly very well demonstrated there.

Mr. HARDMAN. We started this program at the beginning of a very dry spell. There were no clouds for the first 2 years, there was nothing to seed. It did give an opportunity, however, for the perfection of certain equipment which Mr. Elliott has and his workers and the Desert Research Institute have done pretty well. We haven't had 5 years, however, of good cloud-seeding weather.

Senator CANNON. Thank you very much, Mr. Hardman. We appreciate your appearance here and we, of course, are aware of the

fact that Mr. Shamberger, in appearing earlier, has had a lot of experience in your department and he certainly gave us the benefit of his experience.

Mr. HARDMAN. He was the boss.

Senator CANNON. The next witness will be Mr. Walter Wiseman, engineer, Control Data Corp., Las Vegas, Nev. Mr. Wiseman, we are happy to have you here. You may proceed as you see fit. STATEMENT OF WALTER J. WISEMAN, ENGINEER, CONTROL DATA CORP., LAS VEGAS, NEV.

Mr. WISEMAN. My name is Walter J. Wiseman, University of Nevada graduate, bachelor of science, electrical engineering. My vocational experience is systems oriented in the fields of communications and computers. At college, the engineering schools competed in a presentation to the students and public. My electrical engineering class based our presentation on developing two essential elements to Nevada's growth, or for that matter any similar arid area that of power and water. Since that time, I have had a keen avocational interest in any means which can achieve these necessities. I feel that stronger support of weather modification programs is commendable. Past demonstrations of harvesting water from the atmosphere, and other techniques of controlling severe weather phenomena, have gained a general consensus by science and engineering alike that control of weather is within our grasp. In fact, we already have a wealth of technology to apply in all aspects of instrumentation and observation systems to reduce previously gross trial methods to laboratory precision experimentation.

Control Data Corp. currently builds and equips laboratories for other scientific disciplines in our colleges, universities, and industry, mostly in buildings. But we also build them in much larger scope for controlled experiments in ordinance, rockets and missiles, and space exploration. The latter are highly capable instrumented ranges where a large variety of allied experimentation can be performed and closely measured for controlled, substantiated results. Weather modification needs this type of environment to grow and realize the potential promise it holds out to us.

One of the most promising areas, harvesting water, can perhaps best illustrate my point. It is perhaps apparent that the existing watersheds are the most desirable areas in which to stimulate more precipitation. They are the places where conditions are more favorable, and where water can be harvested without interfering with crop production or harvesting schedules. These watersheds have existing drainage systems of dams, reservoirs, and canals developed over many years of water planning with which to best utilize the water derived. However, to just produce more water for a watershed without a careful integration of the runoff systems capacity for control and storage would be to invite the disaster of subsequent natural floods. It is not just a matter of producing more water, but rather of developing a system which encompasses both the production and management of it.

An instrumented range with the ability to definitively measure conditions and parameters in the atmosphere as well as on the ground would yield a laboratory environment for this program of technique

development and practical application. Engineering a system of radar, aircraft, and other measuring or observation devices together with the telemetry, analysis and prognosis generating equipment would define the cost of this approach clearly. Such a range, or ranges, should be open to all experimentors to preserve the flexibility and competitive stimulation of diversity of scientific effort from many quarters. These laboratories could also be utilized for a host of other experimental work, such as clear air turbulence, severe storm warning and control, terminal weather forecasting, and integral watershed management in "test tube" fashion, as well as producing increased hydroelectric power and more usable water.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to appear before you today.

You

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Wiseman. I was interested in your statement, the last paragraph on page 1 of your statement. make what to me is a very important point when you say that:

Just to produce more water for a watershed without a careful integration of the runoff systems capacity for control and storage would be to invite the disaster of subsequent natural floods.

We had a rather dry period when they didn't have clouds really to operate with for seeding purposes. And yet this year we have had quite a bit of snowfall and rainfall and the conservation facilities in this area are getting pretty well filled up. I was told last night that the Rye Patch Dam, which the testimony in the record shows is a control dam at the lower end of the Humboldt before the water dumps into the Humboldt Sink, that Rye Patch Dam is almost full now. So it is obvious that if we are going to increase the water available through these means we are likewise going to have to have adequate conservation aids to take full benefit of the increase. This is the point, I take it, that your are making?

Mr. WISEMAN. Yes; right. In addition I guess the consensus that I derived from the testimony in Las Vegas was that instrumentation of the observation process was the most lacking area. This is why my testimony was pointed in this direction.

Senator CANNON. I understand you are engaged with a computer company at the present time.

Mr. WISEMAN. Yes.

Senator CANNON. To what extent, in your opinion, are computers used and if they are not used could they be used to a good advantage or are they necessary in this type of a program?

Mr. WISEMAN. Well they are used to a large extent by the military at this point in time with operational programs in being. The Fleet Numerical weather facilities at Monterey at the naval postgraduate school is perhaps one of the leading exponents and pioneers in the field. The development of programs that they have had down there have been rather pioneering and very successful and as a consequence of this the naval fleet weather centers have expanded their computer operations to handle the prognoses and analyses that Fleet Numerical does. Of course they are interested in the environment that the Navy operates in, that being the sea, and they are not particularly interested in what happens over a land mass.

Senator CANNON. You refer to an instrumented range as being desirable. A lot of the record shows that our measuring devices are

not adequate up to the present time. Does the State of Nevada offer any unique advantages for setting up such a range in your opinion?

Mr. WISEMAN. Yes, in many respects. From the standpoint of natural occurring conditions, it does. It has several ranges across the State which give the orographic rise and produces that type of cloud.

Senator CANNON. When you say several are you talking about mountain ranges?

Mr. WISEMAN. Mountain ranges, excuse me. The population is comparatively sparse so that weather modification could be carried on in many areas, in a controlled fashion without impinging on the personal rights of people. It is close to the west coast and a system here would be able to look into the Pacific area and the Gulf of Alaska area where most of our weather generates to take anticipatory action in preparing cloud-seeding programs. It has many comparatively small, by other standards, reservoirs and river systems developed but which, at the same time, demonstrate all of the general techniques in watershed management. It has in the Desert Research Institute, I believe, a substantial capability in the theoretical development and management and application of this program.

Senator CANNON. In your opinion should such an instrumented range, as you describe, encompass the entire Nation or would it be better to set up such a range in an area in the West that has the features that you defined earlier?

Mr. WISEMAN. From the standpoint of general coverage of the subject I believe that perhaps several ranges are in order. Perhaps one in the area of the West where we have rather unique conditions to this area. Perhaps one in the Southwest or Gulf States where they have unique conditions that don't occur in the West. But the concept behind establishing a range would be to do this in a "test tube fashion" for general application later on.

Senator CANNON. Of course the bill that we are now receiving testimony under, S. 23, envisions the establishment of a program in five areas of the country and so this seems to be somewhat consistent with what you are saying here now.

Mr. WISEMAN. Yes.

Senator CANNON. Do you think we are actually ready at this time to set up such an instrumented range, are we that far along in your opinion?

Mr. WISEMAN. Yes; I believe so. We have, as I said, a great many technological applications and advances to use at this point. The FAA radar system which is nationwide and could be used to great benefit in seeing the weather, seeing the precipitation, and gathering in the atmospheric information.

Senator CANNON. What would be some of the major components of an instrumented range that are not now available, let's say. You refer to a radar system here that is available.

Mr. WISEMAN. In actual fact the components exist, they just haven't been applied to this particular problem yet. But sensors on aircraft telemetered back through the FAA beacon system into a device which could analyze and provide a prognosis. And, of course, the operational equipment to provide practical application of cloud

seeding, the silver iodide generators or airplanes with dry ice and other nucleating agents.

Senator CANNON. Have you given enough thought to this to estimate the cost of, let's say, a range in Nevada sufficient to do the things you have been talking about?

Mr. WISEMAN. In brief fashion yes. It appears it would cost somewhere in the area of $5 to $6 million. This would be first cost, investment in hardware. This does'nt necessarily talk about the types of people and personnel that would be required.

Senator CANNON. That is independent of the maintenance and operations costs that would be involved in personnel and expense of operation and so on?

Mr. WISEMAN. Yes.

Senator CANNON. In your opinion, given the present state of weather modification, to what extent is the business community investing funds in operational weather modification programs or to what extent should they be interested?

Mr. WISEMAN. I think that could best be answered in pointing out that the airlines are initiating a program this year to do a practical program of clearing fog at airports. So they have evidently determined that the economics are favorable to making holes in clouds to land at airports.

Senator CANNON. That is a program similar to the one that was demonstrated by Desert Research Institute at the Las Vegas hearings? Mr. WISEMAN. That is correct. Other companies like the water and power companies have been, for a number of years, utilizing spot cloud seeding to produce water and the economics have proved this operation for them. My company is extremely interested in it because we have computers installed at NCAR, at the Severe Storm Center, at the U.S. Weather Bureau, and at the Fleet Numerical and fleet center operations.

Senator CANNON. Thank you very much, Mr. Wiseman. We certainly appreciate your appearing here and giving us the benefit of your advice on this very important subject

Mr. WISEMAN. Thank you for the opportunity.

Senator CANNON. The next witness will be Mr. John Chisholm of the Desert Research Institute of the University of Nevada. Mr. Chisholm, we are happy to have you here and you may proceed.

STATEMENT OF JOHN P. CHISHOLM, ACTING HEAD OF THE LABORATORY OF ATMOSPHERIC SCIENCES, DESERT RESEARCH INSTITUTE, UNIVERSITY OF NEVADA, RENO, NEV.

Mr. CHISHOLM. My name is John Chisholm. I am an engineer holding a master of science degree in electrical engineering. Currently I am the acting head of the laboratory of atmospheric sciences at the Desert Research Institute of the University of Nevada. My history is as follows:

I graduated from MIT in 1944, spent the next 7 years at the institution as an instructor. In 1950 I joined Bell Aircraft Corp. in Buffalo, N.Y., where I was responsible for the development of the Navy's automatic landing system for airplanes. I would like to describe the development of this system, as the overall problems