So I am very high in my admiration of those who have come as refugees under the most difficult circumstances to this country from Communist Cuba.

Chairman KENNEDY. I want to thank you very much for appearing before the committee, and thank you particularly for your responsiveness to the questions.

I know that you, as mentioned in your testimony, were instrumental in the release of the Cubans who were active at the Bay of Pigs, and have followed these Cubans in this country.

I think that you bring to the subcommittee itself a unique background in this field and we value highly the comments which you have made here this morning.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Let me say to you that we welcome you to our State. [Applause.]

We understand you are just a visitor.

Chairman KENNEDY. I can make a comment now.

The committee will stand in recess for 2 or 3 minutes.

(Recess.)

Chairman KENNEDY. The subcommittee will come to order.

The next witness this morning will be Mr. Raul Esparza.

(Pause.)

Chairman KENNEDY. Mr. Esparza was here earlier. We will take at this point Mr. Mitchell Ginsberg, who is the commissioner of welfare, New York City.

Mr. Ginsberg was appointed in February 1966. He has a long record of distinguished service at the Columbia University School of Social Work, where in recent years he has served as associate dean. While at Columbia he served as director of training programs at the university for Peace Corps volunteers.

Mr. GINSBERG. Senator Kennedy, I have some figures here and while I know statistics are often dull I think they give a fairly good picture of the welfare situation with respect to the Cuban situation in New York City.

At the common point at this stage in time we have approximately 308 of what are called cases, totaling 518 people currently on welfare. That is as of the beginning of March.

Seventy of those people, slightly over 25 percent of them, or slightly under 25 percent, had themselves sought out welfare services. They had inquired on their own.

The approximately 220-odd additional ones had been referred by 4 or 5 different community agencies, which would indicate that these agencies, by their nature, had been in touch with these people from the time they left, assuming they came into Miami, and had referred them to the welfare department.

The largest number of this group of 308 are currently active in what we call general assistance, which means it is not a question of age or disability but primarily an unemployment question.

The group, understandably, that tends to stay with us longest is the old-age group, and that is because the opportunities for employment, et cetera, are minimal.

Overall there hasn't been much shift over the years. We have complete records for the past 3 years.

In 1963 we had 471 applications and 260 accepted. In the next 2 years it dropped off some, 267 applications in 1964, 185 accepted; 204 applications in 1965, 158 accepted.

There is no significant change there except you will note the number of applicants drop off as the proportion of those accepted increases. However, in January and February of 1966, and it is too early to tell whether this represents a trend, both the number applying and the number accepted, goes up quite sharply; 111 applications just for those 2 months and if it stood at that level it would mean it would go up above 600 for the year, and the proportion accepted, 96 of the 111. is also quite high.

The financial cost is also, again, fairly stable, except for the last 2 months approximately $170,000 in 1963, $230,000 in 1964 and $241,000 in 1965-no significant change.

But for the 2 months of 1966 it jumps to about $55,000, just for those 2 months.

Again, assuming a projection, we could indicate that it could be higher for this year if it stays that way.

Chairman KENNEDY. How do you account for that?

Mr. GINSBERG. I assume because it is an attempt to have more move out to other parts of the country, both an attempt and obviously more efficiency in getting them out. Of course, this is only 2 months and I am projecting as to whether it will stay that way.

But it does mean that in these 2 months we had a sharply increased number applying for public assistance.

Chairman KENNEDY. Have you analyzed whether these are recent arrivals?

Mr. GINSBERG. No; we don't have that information, unfortunately. But the assumption generally in these situations is that-this is our experience with the other group-if they need public assistance they tend to apply quite early after they get into the city. Then, after they get better known to the city and know its resources better, they tend to go off public assistance.

I have done a check on a sample of those that during the past year, for instance, went off. We had slightly over a hundred, and of a sample of 15, 13 of them went off public assistance because they secured employment.

Obviously that is the key to the thing. Thirteen out of fifteen— one was taken care of by the family.

The average length of stay on public assistance of some form for the the group who are still active with us and this is again on a sample basis-it ranges anywhere from 4 months to 3 years and 4 months, with an average of a year and 8 months.

So the average family or individual who comes on public assistance in New York City tends to stay on for about a year and two-thirds, and increased employment and training opportunities clearly are the things that help people get off welfare in the city. In that respect they are very similar to our general situation.

Chairman KENNEDY. Do you get some kind of assistance from the Federal Government?

Mr. GINSBERG. Yes. On this group we get a hundred percent assistThose figures that I have given you, as far as the actual cash

ance.

65-505-66-pt. 2- -3

Chairman KENNEDY. So it really isn't costing the city of New York anything?

Mr. GINSBERG. Except in terms of the staffing, the facilities, et cetera. But the actual cash, unlike general welfare assistance, with the average Federal grant, depending on category, ranges from 50 percent to nothing, with these so-called nonresident situations it is a hundred percent Federal reimbursement, a principal I would like to see extended to the other.

Chairman KENNEDY. Has there been any problem developing with the Federal relationship?

Mr. GINSBERG. None at all. I think our relations with the Federal Government have been excellent. I think we could use more training programs, because that is clearly the answer. The figures are clear cut, that employment, except for the older age group, is the answer. Like our old-age group in the population generally, there isn't too much you can do there, but with the other groups increased training opportunities lead to increased employment.

Chairman KENNEDY. Did you have a program by which you sent recruits to the Miami area to get Cuban refugees to work in the welfare program? I recall something being done by your predecessor.

Mr. GINSBERG. I don't believe so, Senator Kennedy. I don't believe we have done that.

I think it is true that the four or five agencies who refer 80 percent of the clients to us have been very active in that, so that the net result has been very similar.

You see, there were four or five organizations I have them if you are interested in them-that referred 80 percent of the clients to us.

Chairman KENNEDY. Do you have any reason-this may be somewhat repetitious of the earlier question-why there should be the increase in the number of Cubans on welfare during January and February of this year?

Mr. GINSBERG. I tried to speculate a little about it. It obviously isn't related to any employment situation here. That hasn't changed very much. Again, four-fifths of them come through these agencies. So I would guess that the agencies have become more active, either as a result of their own efforts or because of some conscious effort in Florida to move more of them out of there.

That would seem to me the only logical explanation.

Chairman KENNEDY. You don't have any figures or numbers of Cubans that have come into New York recently? You have 30,000, as I understand it, in the State.

Mr. GINSBERG. Yes. We wouldn't have it. We wouldn't have that figure.

Chairman KENNEDY. Of the 30,000 then, as far as New York City goes, you have how many today that are on public welfare?

Mr. GINSBERG. At the moment we have 308 situations, which totals 518 people, because, of course, in some cases it is a mother with small children. But it is a total of 518 people out of 308 cases.

Chairman KENNEDY. AS I understand it, most of the Cuban refugees are in the city, New York State has 30,000, but most of those are in the city.

Mr. GINSBERG. That is my understanding also.

Chairman KENNEDY. Can you reach any conclusion with that kind of a figure of 308 cases or 518 as to the percent of people who are on welfare?

Mr. GINSBERG. Well, it is a relatively low percentage. It would be a lower percentage than would be true in our general population.

We have approximately, in the general population, assuming 8 million for New York City, we have 500,000, give or take a few, on some form of general assistance. One of the reasons for that, of course, is that in the general population we have a much higher percentage of older people who tend to very heavily end up on public assistance. Now you are talking of 500 people out of approximately 30,000, so the proportion is substantially less than 1 out of 16 in the general population.

Chairman KENNEDY. That is in spite of the fact of the problems that they have in employability?

- Mr. GINSBERG. That is right, yes.

Chairman KENNEDY. It is also in spite of the fact that the people that have come recently, say in the last few months, have been, a great percentage of them, women and children?

Mr. GINSBERG. Yes. One other factor that operates here is that during the previous years they tend, the people who come here in this group, tend to be somewhat more skilled than is true of the general population, and so the employment opportunities in that sense are better for them.

Chairman KENNEDY. Actually, those that are on welfare, if my mathematics are correct, constitute about 2 percent.

Mr. GINSBERG. That is right, depending on what proportion of that 30,000 was actually in New York City.

Chairman KENNEDY. Would you say-this is the point which we are primarily interested in-from your experience, which is considerable in this area and field, that except for those that are dependent on public welfare, the Cuban refugees as a group, from the conclusions that you could reach from those that are on welfare, have been integrated into our society as far as

Mr. GINSBERG. Certainly from an economic standpoint these figures would testify to that, yes.

Chairman KENNEDY. Are the welfare standards for Cubans the same as they are

Mr. GINSBERG. Exactly the same. There are no differences at all. Chairman KENNEDY. Could you very briefly give us the requirements, summarize and requirements?

Mr. GINSBERG. The basic requirement is related to income. What we do is an income check.

If you use, let's say, a family of four as your basic unit, what such a family must show is that they have an income or they don't have an income that is between $2,200 and $2,400 a year, which, of course, not related to the Cubans necessarily, is substantially below the poverty level, and then what we try to do is pick up the difference between the two figures.

Chairman KENNEDY. That takes how long, that study?

Mr. GINSBERG. In theory it is supposed to be done within 24 hours, but it sometimes, unfortunately, takes longer.

We are trying to introduce some innovations that would reduce the time.

Chairman KENNEDY. How long does it usually take?

Mr. GINSBERG. A week to 2 weeks.

Chairman KENNEDY. What happens to the families in the meantime?

Mr. GINSBERG. We do have emergency assistance. Any family, whether Cuban or otherwise, we do have an office open 24 hours 7 days a week, and if a family can go to that office on Fifth Street and can demonstrate the need, we take care of them immediately regardless of any other factors.

Chairman KENNEDY. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Gins berg, for appearing. The information on the percent of welfare is extremely interesting, and does explode a number of the myths which have been bandied around about the Cuban refugees. I think it is extremely helpful. I apprepriate your observations.

Mr. GINSBERG. Thank you, sir.

(Witness excused.)

Chairman KENNEDY. Mr. Esparza.

Mr. Esparza, we are delighted to welcome you to the subcommittee. I understand you are accompanied by Dr. Carlos Theye, who will act as interpreter. We welcome you before the committee as well.

Mr. Esparza is a top level Cuban sugar expert, and one of the long-term key men in the Cuban sugar economy. He began work in Cuba's sugar industry in 1943, and has in recent years held top government positions. Under Castro he held the post of National Production Chief of the Sugar Ministry from 1961 to 1963. His position. up to the time of his defection, was Director of Technological Research for the Sugar Ministry.

In March of this year he headed the Cuban delegation to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization meeting in London. On the last day of the conference Mr. Esparza learned that his wife and children had succeeded in escaping from Cuba in a small boat. and he thereafter defected. He joined his family in Florida some 2 weeks ago.

We are delighted to welcome you to this committee. proceed in your own way.

You may

Mr. THEYE. Mr. Esparza wanted me to express his thanks to the committee, Senator, for giving him the opportunity of expressing his views here. He hopes you will excuse his English.

Chairman KENNEDY. It is a lot better than our Spanish.

Mr. Esparza, I will include your statement in its entirety as read into the record. You can summarize it in English briefly if you would like to, and we can move into the question period, if that would be easier for you, or whatever way you would like to proceed. Mr. THEYE. He would like to read it as fast as possible. Chairman KENNEDY. You may proceed.

Mr. ESPARZA. My name is Raul Esparza Tabares and until scarcely a month ago I was the chairman of the Cuban delegation to the International Conference of Sugar Experts of the FAO (U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization) that met in London between March 1 and 4, 1966. At the same time I was Director of Technological