I notice from your statement here today that you feel that HEW probably would be the department responsible for it, since they have the prime responsibility at the present time to arrange the contractual arrangements with the voluntary agencies, and that they ought to be encouraging programs or at least be thinking about programs to help and assist the Cubans when there is a free Cuba, if the families want to be reunited and returned to Cuba.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Yes.

First, of course, those who have come to the United States have had all of their property seized. Assuming that there are a hundred thousand or so that wish to go back to Cuba, it is a question of where they are going to go back to, how they are going to support themselves initially, where they are going to settle, who is going to take care of them, and how they are going to fit into the political processes of government.

Obviously those matters, particularly the latter, are going to have to be decided by the Cubans themselves. In any event there is planning and work that we could be doing at the present time, it seems to me, so that we could help them when Cuba is freed or when Castro has disappeared from the scene. Groups of these refugees that have come to the United States have indicated that they want to return to their own country.

Chairman KENNEDY. I suppose that would also include a collection of material regarding information about where these people live, their own property, and ultimately how they settled in Cuba. That will be a matter, as you pointed out, for the Cubans to decide. However, up to that point we ought to be thinking and developing programs.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Obviously we are going to have to help and assist at that time. I think it would be well, particularly with the reports that are coming out of Cuba at the present timedisturbances of so many kinds, political and economic; the indications in the newspapers over the period of the last 8 weeks particularly, that there are going to be changes within Cuba-that we should prepare for those changes.

Obviously there are areas outside the resettlement of refugees, but I think that the resettlement of refugees is something which should receive high priority.

Chairman KENNEDY. Also in your testimony you referred to the problems of political prisoners. Could you give us some idea as to the numbers of political prisoners that you are talking about?

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I don't think anyone has an absolute figure. I have heard it range from 50,000 to 80,000, and some figures are even higher than that. These are political prisoners who have been locked up in various prisons across Cuba by Castro because of political opposition.

There have been some formerly very, very important political figures who have been incarcerated. There have been others who just, in one way or another, have opposed the Castro regime or opposed communism, who have been sent to jail and have languished there for many, many years.

The conditions are deplorable. We found that out from those who participated in the invasion at the Bay of Pigs.

Chairman KENNEDY. Just on that point-I know that you were extremely active in the negotiations which eventually brought about the release of the prisoners involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion. From your contacts and from your discussions with those who did spend time in the Cuban prisons, could you describe to any extent the conditions?

Senator KENNEDY of New York. First, I assure you that the committee could obtain firsthand information regarding the situation within Cuban prisons. I talked to a number of them who came out of the same prisons where some of these political prisoners were located and their situation could hardly have been any worse than it was, regarding the sanitary conditions, or the lack of food, or the lack of hope for the future, or the inability to visit. All of these are the basic elements that we consider so important.

Many of them died of starvation, many saw it happen around them continuously. A number of them lost their minds because of the kinds of conditions that they were subjected to.

So that is the situation and their own contacts that they had of people who were incarcerated in other prisons. They came back with a most deplorable story.

I don't think there is any question that if this group of prisoners had been kept in prison for a longer period of time, perhaps another few years, that a large number of them would have died. This fact they recognize themselves

So I think that with such large numbers within the prisons at the present time, and Castro having to feed and support them to some extent, that negotiations, intensive negotiations to try to obtain their release, in my judgment at least, for some of them could be successful.

I think it is extremely important that the U.S. Government does all in its power at the highest level to try to obtain the release of these individuals, both men and women, and even some children.

I think that if we had an intensive program of that kind it might very well be successful for a substantial portion of those who are now listed as political prisoners.

Let me just say that from my own experience back in 1962 and 1963 in the negotiations that we had with Mr. Castro for the release of those who had participated at the Bay of Pigs, that it is going to require an intensified effort at the highest level of Government if we are going to be successful. That was the only way that we were able to be successful with the 1,300 members of that brigade.

Chairman KENNEDY. Just on that point, we had representatives from the State Department and asked about what was being done. They indicated that the memorandum of understanding, which is the basis for the current agreement, permission for the Cubans that want to leave Cuba at the rate that they are leaving, which is approximately 4,000 a month, was established-that when the memorandum of understanding was initiated there was a discussion of political prisoners, but that Mr. Castro refused to permit the political prisoners to leave.

In the hearings that we have had, we have asked whether there have been any subsequent conversations, either by our own people through contacts with the Cubans or through the Swiss Embassy, and we were

given information that there were no continuing conversations on that matter.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I think that it should receive an intensified effort. As I say, we might not be sucessful in obtaining the release of all of them, but we can in my judgment do more than we have done in the past, and I think that we have an obligation and responsibility, for our society to make that kind of effort.

As I say, I think there are some chances that it can be successful, but it is going to require an intensified effort at the highest level of the U.S. Government, and the commitment of our own Government from the State Department on down to try to obtain this release.

I would go back to my own experience in 1962 and 1963. There were those within the U.S. Government who were opposed to making any effort for the release of the Bay of Pigs brigade, on the basis that they couldn't be successful.

We started the negotiations, remember, before the Cuban missile crisis and they were completed just after the Cuban missile crisis. At least a great number of people and a number of the high officials within our Government felt that it could not be successful because that was the most unfavorable and unpleasant of times.

But it was successful and it was effective because there was a commitment by the U.S. Government to obtain the release of these men if it could possibly be done. It seems to me that we need the same kind of commitment, the same kind of effort on behalf of these political prisoners who are now within the confines of the jails of Communist Cuba.

Chairman KENNEDY. Moving to another area, Senator Kennedy, you mentioned that there were Americans who live in Cuba today. Some of them have applied to leave Cuba and have not been permitted to do so, and there are a number of other Americans who have not made applications.

Do you think that we ought to be making this a matter of priority as well?

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Yes, I do. Again there are, I believe, approximately 1,500 Americans altogether in Cuba.

Chairman KENNEDY. That is approximately the figure that we have,

too.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. And I think once again we should make the effort. At the time we obtained the release of the Bay of Pigs prisoners, we were able to obtain the release of some other Americans and other political prisoners.

I might say that one or two people in the group came out unbeknownst to Mr. Castro. They just were in the same prison, and they were able to escape in that fashion. But there were other prisoners, in particular, who were released through the negotiations by Mr. Donovan, and these were Americans plus some other political prisoners. They weren't very important but their release was extremely important.

We have Americans down there. I think we have a responsibility to those who wish to come back to the United States, to obtain their release.

Once again it will not be done unless it receives top priority and an intensive effort on the part of the U.S. Government. If it does, in my judgment we can have greater success than we have had in the past.

Chairman KENNEDY. Moving on to another area, one of the facts that has developed is that approximately 20,000 to 25,000 Cuban refugees who are today in Spain, many of them individuals who have families here in the United States, and I would imagine, since New York is one of the principal recipient States to receive Cuban refugees. that a number of their relatives live here in New York.

Under the recent immigration bill that was passed it isn't possible for these families to be reunited. Most of them face the very stringent labor provisions in the new immigration law.

This is a certainly violative, I think, of the spirit of the new immigration law which was drafted in the Department of Justice while you were Attorney General and which was of great interest, of course, to President Kennedy.

Would you favor, first of all, if it were possible, an administrative decision to permit a waiver so that these refugees who have left Cuba and gone to Spain would be able to be reunited with their families!

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I certainly would. Of course, if they come directly here there wouldn't be any problem about it. So it doesn't really make any sense-after they were sent to Spain rather than the United States, not to permit them to come into the United States and be reunited with their families.

We are letting similar people come in from Cuba each month, so it doesn't seem to me to make any sense at all not to permit them to come in from Cuba via Spain.

Chairman KENNEDY. Nonetheless, they are currently forbidden to do so, and I just wonder, as someone who had been so intimately involved with that immigration bill-and one of the principal and fundamental parts of that bill was the reunification of families-how you feel.

I believe that was given great priority in the development of the bill. It certainly would appear so, and that is why I was interested your comment, to violate that spirit which was so overwhelmingly endorsed in the Congress.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Really I suppose the heart of the new immigration bill is the fact that people from all over the world could be reunited with their families all over the United States, and we now have this situation where those who come from Cuba cannot be reunited with their families because they have to stop and stay in Spain. It really doesn't make a great deal of sense.

I would hope that administratively the Government could deal with that. Again, I think that that should receive their highest attention. Chairman KENNEDY. I just have a couple of final questions.

In your testimony you also come out for the adjustment of status of the Cuban refugees. I would think that you presented powerful evidence in your examples. I imagine you have a number of others, where many of the Cuban refugees possessed fairly unique opportu nities to contribute to the economy and the society both of New York and the Nation, but that they are precluded from doing so because they are not being permitted to adjust their status and overcome these very strict State regulations in a number of different professions.

I gather that you feel strongly that Cubans ought to be permitted to adjust their status.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. Yes, I think it is extremely important. I have seen a large number of friends of Cuban refugees who have come here to the United States, who have contributed to our economy, who have contributed to our way of life, who make extraordinarily fine citizens. I think that if they wish to do so they should be treated like other people who have come to this country and that we should have legislation so that this anomaly, unfairness, rather, of the laws, would be adjusted.

Chairman KENNEDY. Senator, the final question is one of the things which constantly comes up:

We receive a number of letters to the committee from people who do not feel that the Cubans themselves are being well integrated into the fabric of our society and economy, and are making a useful contribution.

I am wondering, from your personal experience, from your knowledge of New York, the city and the State, whether you could just give

us a comment on that.

Senator KENNEDY of New York. I think that actually they have done extraordinarily well. I think if we go back over the period of the last hundred years the various groups that have come to the United States, especially as the Cubans had a language barrier, I don't think that we find a group that has done better.

They have contributed in all kinds of ways in all of the communities in which they have settled. I think that they have made extraordinarily fine citizens. They have met their own responsibilities in the community in a very fine way.

I think not only have they done well here in New York City, in the State of New York, but I know that they have done well elsewhere in the country where they have settled.

Some of the figures I put in the record in my opening statement: The fact that they have done well in school, the children have done well in school, the fact there are so few that have been on relief. I know that some of them went into the U.S. Army and did extraordinarily well; they were fine leaders, some of officers, some as enlisted men, and all have met their responsibilities very, very well.

I talked to Secretary McNamara about their service and the way they performed and he was highly impressed. He said that some of the best officers we had, younger officers, were Cubans.

Chairman KENNEDY. When was that arrangement made?
Senator KENNEDY of New York. It was made in 1963.

Chairman KENNEDY. For some of these individuals to serve in the service?

Senator KENNEDY of New York. For some of these individuals to serve in the military services. And they did, as I say, very, very well, gave great leadership, provided fine leadership, performed very, very well.

So I think not only have they done that in civilian life within our various communities, and fitted into the fabric of our society, but have performed their jobs well, diligently, conscientiously: also they have greeted the hospitality that has been shown them by the U.S. citizens I think extraordinarily well.