people does not weep any more. And, therefore, it must not be beaten any more.

The Rumanian people, as well as the other peoples behind the Iron Curtain, are desperate. They have abandoned hope that they will ever be released. For years we have heard a broadcast station: "Rebel against communism, rebel against communism," and when we rebelled we were abandoned.

And we see how our oppressors are helped. I will tell you a scene. Believe me, God is here. I tell you the scene just as it happened. It was in the years of brainwashing, the 14th year of prison. We are gathered to a meeting, and Major Alexandrescu, the commandant of the prison of Gherla, delivered us a speech and said:

You fools, you set for 15 or 20 years in prison and expected the Americans to come. You expected the Americans will come and release you. Now I will give you the news. The Americans come but not to release you. They come to help us, to help us, to make business with us, to make trade with us. You fools have not known. The Americans if you beg them, they give you nothing. If you insult them, if you mock them, they give you money. We have been more clever than

you.

These are words which I have heard myself. Such things have happened in our country.

Mr. SOURWINE. Are there any open churches in Rumania today, which anyone may attend?

So

Reverend WURMBRAND. Just I didn't finish this question. there is a relaxation in what sense? Our people has given up the fight. Political underground movements don't exist any more with us. They have no such. And so everything has quieted down in the country, and so they don't need any more of the same terror. I have been for years in prison with thieves and murderers. Even before having been put in prison I have been chaplain of a prison. A thief after he has stolen is a gentleman. He gives to the waiters the greatest tips. and he invites girls and he invites you and he orders the best wines. He has not worked for his money. And such thieves are the Communists. They have stolen half of Europe, they have stolen Russia, too. They have stolen a great part of Asia. And now they have what they have stolen and they are gentlemen and they expect the next occasion to steal again.

In this sense there is a relaxation with us, but it is not an essential one. We continue to have the avowed dictatorship of an atheistic party. We have one party. There can be no religious freedom where there is one party. We have elections. Now a joke is made with us that when God created Adam, He created only one woman, Eve, and He said to Adam, "You are free to choose for wife whomsoever you wish." But there was only Eve. And so are the elections with us. Our Government doesn't mind old women coming to church, but our childhood, our youth is poisoned with atheism. We are not allowed to counteract, and what bitter fruits will come out of this seed nobody can know.

Now you have asked another question, do we have open churches in Rumania? If somebody comes to Rumania-it is another situation in Russia-if somebody comes to Rumania, he is really impressed. The Orthodox liturgy is something very beautiful. It is grand. And if you come in Rumania you see thousands of churches open, liturgies, sermons, many people in the church. And I have spoken

with Americans who have been there and have told me, "I was very impressed." And now there is really a certain religious liberty. In Rumania you are allowed to say as much as you like that God is good. You are not allowed to say that the Devil is bad. St. John the Baptist could have saved his life if he had said: "Repent because the kingdom of heaven is near." Nobody would have touched him. He was touched when he said, "You, Herod, are bad."

If Christ would have delivered a thousand "Sermons on the Mount" they would not have crucified Him. They crucified Him when He said, "You vipers," then He was crucified.

In Rumania you can say God is good but you can't say "communism is cruel, they commit atrocities, it is a crime to poison children with atheism." If you do this you go to prison. There are many priests, rabbis, and pastors who compromise and don't put the dot on the "i." There exists the real church and the real religion and that which compromises.

Mr. SOURWINE. Are there churchmen in Rumania today who willingly cooperate with the Communist authorities?

Reverend WURMBRAND. Surely. The Orthodox hierarchy nearly entirely. Of the Catholic hierarchy, not one. The Catholic bishops died in prison, all except four. These four have house arrest. At the Vatican council no Catholic bishop was allowed to come. Came a Catholic priest, a well-known traitor, Augustine, who is the real leader of the Catholic Church; the leadership of the Baptists, for example, is entirely in the hands of the Communists.

I have here a document which I present to the Senate, a list of 150 Russian Baptist pastors recently deported to Siberia. Not all arrived in Siberia. Many died of tortures.

Senator DODD. Can you talk a little more slowly? I could get your pronunciation better.

Reverend WURMBRAND. This is a list of 150 Baptist pastors of Russia who have been recently deported to Siberia. I have the names, the addresses, the names of their wives, of their children. They have not all arrived to Siberia, because of the tortures many died.

Senator DODD. These were Rumanians?

Reverend WURMBRAND. No, no, Russians. And I give it to the Senate.

Mr. SOURWINE. Mr. Chairman, do you wish this list and the document of transmittal to go into the record? There is an English translation to be made.

Senator DODD. Yes; I believe it should be in the record.
Mr. SOURWINE. Will you hand that list to the reporter?

(The list and the document appear in the appendix of this volume.) Senator DODD. I don't quite understand this. These are 400 Russian Baptists?

Reverend WURMBRAND. 150.

Senator DODD. Were they in Rumania?

Reverend WURMBRAND. No, no, they are Russians. We got it from Russia. Here I have another very interesting document.

Mr. SOURWINE. If you would excuse me, please, I believe the Senator's question raises a point you should clear up. How do you have this information about Russia? Have you been in Russia?

Reverend WURMBRAND. I have worked for years secret missionary work among the Russian soldiers who occupied our country.

I

speak Russian fluently, and we brought many Russian soldiers to Christ. To preach Christ to the Russians means Heaven on earth. They seek the Gospel as the thirsty soil seeks water. They have not known Him. The beauty of the Gospel you know it when you preach it to Russians; how they live it and how they enjoy it, and so I have made some connections.

In a public sitting I can't say how I have arrived to have these lists. Mr. SOURWINE. You know it to be authentic?

Reverend WURMBRAND. Personally I can tell you from where I have this list, but it is absolutely authentic. It can be controlled. Surely in a public sitting I can't say how I have received it.

I present to the Senate also a very interesting document, the most interesting I have ever known in this matter, the document, "Li Wei Han." It is a letter of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China addressed to the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Cuba. Now recently they have quarreled but this letter is an older one in which they teach how to win the leadership of the churches for communism, how to make that the Communists should be leaders of the churches. It is an unequaled document of Machiavelianism.

We have lived these things but never have I seen it put on paper as this.

Mr. SOURWINE. May I suggest this be printed as an appendix to the record, Mr. Chairman?

Senator DODD. Yes.

(The letter referred to will be found in the appendix.)

Senator DODD. I take it what you have been telling us must be more or less common knowledge in Rumania, is it?

Reverend WURMBRAND. Yes; surely.

Senator DODD. Would it be accurate to deduce that the embassy officials of the several countries must have heard it too?

Reverend WURMBRAND. Yes, surely. Everybody knows, but there are many here in the West who don't wish to know.

Senator DODD. Why not?

Reverend WURMBRAND. They don't wish to be troubled in their quietness. They close their eyes before this menace. I have met men who simply close their eyes when I told them about these things. They know that they are true. But they have a certain policy of friendly relationship with the Communist countries, and they are very honest men, but they are duped exactly as we were duped in Rumania.

Wherever the Communists came in the beginning, they said the same thing which I read here in newspapers and in periodicals. "You know Stalin's communism has been very bad, but Yugoslavian communism or another kind of communism, this is very good."

A little lion in its first days you can play with him just like with a puppy. When he becomes great, only then he is a lion. Yugoslavian communism is this little communism. And American communism is a very little one and English communism is a very little one. When they grow, when they can do whatever they will to do, then only we can see them. With us, in the beginning, we also had a very nice communism. I have seen in Rumanian Communist demonstrations signs with the slogan, "God Save the King." I have seen the Communist Secretaries of State making great crosses, showing themselves as being

on the side of religion and making compliments to religion and bowing to religion and saying they are Democrats. In the beginning, they have put in prison party members who said that the agriculture must be collectivized. And they have gone together with the bourgeois party, with the Liberal Party of Tatorescu and with other Democrats. I have seen in the West Social Democrats collaborate with them. In Rumania, I have seen dying Social Democrats in the same cell with me; they died. Communists in Rumania, too, were nice until they had the whole power in hand. When they had the whole power in hand, they have done things exactly as in Russia, and so they will do everywhere. There is no difference.

Mr. SOURWINE. You mentioned demonstrations by the Communists. Does Rumania have anything like the demonstrations that are so prevalent in this country, demonstrations against the Government's activities or against its policies?

Reverend WURMBRAND. Nobody can say a word of criticism. Such a thing doesn't even enter in the mind of somebody. I will tell you something which may be laughable for you. It is very tragical with us. But the story is just as I tell you. I know the man. A man was in a barbershop in a little town, Sibiu. While the barber shaved him, he said to the barber: "What should I do? My hair falls." The barber said, "Very well, I will make you a friction but you must not be anxious about this. The most intelligent people of the world have been bald." On the other seat there was an officer of the secret police and he said to the barber, "What have you said now?"

"I have said that the most intelligent people of the world are bald.” "So, you assert that Stalin has not been intelligent." It is a question of laughter for you but it is tragical with us. Nobody dares to say a word.

I stopped in Newark, and in Philadelphia, a demonstration against the war in Vietnam. I had not this clerical suit on. I stopped the demonstrators and I undressed myself to the belt. Afterwards I heard that it is illegal here in the States, and that I could have gone to prison for this. I undressed myself.

Senator DODD. It would have been all right on the bathing beach. Reverend WURMBRAND. Yes; it was not on the beach. And I told them, "This have Communists done to me. Do you think that American Christians should fight against communism?" So they surrounded me and asked me, "Why have Communists done to you this?" I said to them, "Suppose that I am a murderer. Do you agree that a murderer should be tortured? Has Oswald been tortured? Has Ruby been tortured with you?" They all said, "No; murderers have not been tortured." I continued: "Then know that I have not be charged with murder. I am a clergyman." They stopped the demonstration. In Philadelphia there was again such a demonstration. I am not a man of politics. I can't speak for the war of Vietnam or against the war in Vietnam. I speak this general principle that Christians must be on the side of righteousness. They must never be on the side of the inquisitors of Christians. They must be on the side of the victims of the inquisitors, they must be on the side. of the Christians.

In Philadelphia there was a great meeting. A pastor with clerical suit, a Presbyterian pastor, delivered a speech in which he praised Communists and said that Communists are all right and it is stupid

to fight against them. I have learned something from the Communists. In a minute-after-the pastor was no more in the pulpit, I was in the pulpit. I said: "Now I will speak about communism. What do you know about communism? And I will show you my credentials, how I have studied communism." I undressed myself to the belt. I did not know that all these bad reporters are there and took pictures. And I showed them my body. "That is what Communists do to Christians, and you, Pastor, why don't you make demonstrations, if you are a Christian and if you have youth in you and vigor, why don't you demonstrate before the Soviet and Rumanian Embassies and the other embassies against torturing Christians?" And then the public, which has been there booed him and shouted to him "Judas."

These are Judases. They may be all right innerly, I don't know their hearts, but I think that Christians, if they wish to demonstrate, they should demonstrate against those who have recently deported 150 Baptist pastors.

Mr. SOURWINE. The subcommittee has received substantial information to the effect that the Rumanian Communist Government has infiltrated into this country Communist-trained clergy with other missions than those of a spiritual nature. Do you have any information about that?

Reverend WURMBRAND. Rumanian Communists are very interested in the fact that you have here, in the States, something like 300,000 Americans of Rumanian origin who speak the Rumanian language and are Orthodox.

The Rumanians have a bishop, Bishop Viorel Trifa, who is antiCommunist and the Communists wish to win these 300,000 on their side. They can't very well win them for communism, but they can win them for a leftwing Christianity which supports communism. They have sent here several men, Moisescu, Liviu Stan, and so on. These don't come with Communist slogans but with the words: "You must love your Rumanian fatherland. *** You must have connections with the Rumanian patriarchy." When I came out from Rumania I saw for the first time a Rumanian newspaper which appears in Bucharest, and which nobody in Bucharest has ever seen. The Voice of the Fatherland it is called, and in the fatherland nobody sees this newspaper. Only your American Rumanians see it and in France. I have never seen it. My son looked at it, and we have never seen it. In this newspaper you read about priests and churches. In our newspapers you will never have a word about the church. There you have pictures of priests and monasteries and how fine it is and so on. They make this propaganda, surely.

Senator DODD. You mean this paper is only distributed in the free world?

Reverend WURMBRAND. Only in the free world. They have at midnight, which corresponds to I don't know what hour here in the United States, it is noon or I don't know what, they have religious services which are jammed in Rumania, but they are emitted from Rumania. We have no religious services on the broadcasts. These are broadcast religious services only that the Americans should know how fine the Communists are and that they have religious services. Mr. SOURWINE. Are you saying that the religious services of the Rumanian Orthodox Church