in the Far East, southeast Asia; the Technical Cooperation Administration administrates the program for India, Pakistan, Iran, the Middle East, and Latin America.

Senator FULBRIGHT. Is the technical assistance program under you; is it under your general supervision?

Mr. HARRIMAN. Well, you remember, the Congress gave me two responsibilities; one, the administration of MSA; and the other as Director of Mutual Security the supervision of the entire programpoint 4, the MSA program, and the military program.

Senator FULBRIGHT. In southeast Asia, you mean Burma and Thailand and Indonesia?

Mr. HARRIMAN. We have programs in Formosa, the Philippines, Indochina, Thailand, Burma, Indonesia.

Senator FULBRIGHT. And those you administer directly. The technical assistance program does not enter into those?

Mr. HARRIMAN. The Technical Cooperation Administration does not operate there, because we didn't want to duplicate two administrations in the same place.

Senator FULBRIGHT. And in India, the Technical Cooperation people do administer there?

Mr. HARRIMAN. That is right, India and Pakistan.

Senator FULBRIGHT. All of that would be part of this information I had hoped would be supplied, and I hoped in detail. And I would recommend that you get a little better duplicating machinery. This сору I have is very difficult to read. It is very hard on my eyes. I wish you could get one with black print in preference to this blue. These long documents are hard on my eyes.

Mr. HARRIMAN. We will try to do better for your eyes.
Senator FULBRIGHT. I am getting old and blind.

EUROPE'S AWARENESS OF THE MILITARY THREAT

I had one general question. From the press and conversation we hear quite often, the Americans seem to be much more disturbed about the military threat than the Europeans are. Would you care to make an observation on that?

Mr. HARRIMAN. That is far from my impression. You will recall that after Lisbon Mr. Faure, who was then Prime Minister of France, presented the expended military program to the French National Assembly, and it was unanimously approved, with no dissenters except for the Communists. There are in certain countries certain people who prefer improvement of standard of living to the defense effort, but they are in the minority in all of the countries of Europe, and in a small minority in many.

PROPOSAL FOR A MIDDLE EAST DEVELOPMENT BANK

Senator FULBRIGHT. There is just one other thing. Someone suggested to me that a Middle East Development Bank was being considered and recommended. Do you know anything about that? Mr. HARRIMAN. What is that?

Senator FULBRIGHT. The Middle East Development Bank. The idea, as I understand it, was the organization in the Middle East of a

bank patterned after the International Bank, adapted for Middle East uses. I just wondered if you know anything about that.

Mr. HARRIMAN. There have been no concrete proposals that I know of.

Senator FULBRIGHT. They sent me a written proposal or recommendation for a Middle East Development Bank. It sounded like a good idea. I just wondered whether you knew about that.

Mr. HARRIMAN. No; there is nothing in this bill or this program that involves that.

Senator FULBRIGHT. I do not know that it would necessarily be in the bill. It was an effort to organize an institution to which particularly the Arabians, Saudi Arabians, and others, who are getting a pretty large income for oil, might be induced to bring some of their money for oil development. I do not know whether it involved a particular contribution by us. I just wondered whether such a project was being considered. You do not know anything about it? Mr. HARRIMAN. No; I do not know to what you refer, sir. Senator FULBRIGHT. That is all.

Mr. HARRIMAN. There have been many proposals in which the International Bank has been involved, to attempt to expand irrigation, drainage, and improve the conditions. The International Bank has given consideration to some of these development programs, and I have had some knowledge of them for the past few years. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Hickenlooper?

NATIONAL DEBT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM, FRANCE, BELGIUM, NETHERLANDS, AND ITALY

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Mr. Harriman, how much has the national debt of France increased in the last 3 or 4 years?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I will get those figures. I have not got them. Senator HICKENLOOPER. Outside of money or grants which the United States has put in there.

Mr. HARRIMAN. I haven't got those figures. I will be glad to supply them.

(The information referred to is as follows:)

1

Gross debt outstanding of the central government for selected European countries and the United States

1 Excludes debt representing subscription for IMF in national currency.

2 Belgian part of debt as of Aug. 31, 1950.

3 Estimated as of Dec. 31, 1951.

4 Includes debt originating from borrowing from Treasury correspondents.

Includes loans for Swiss francs, EXIM Bank, ERP loans, and Argentine loan not considered in State budget.

6 Estimated as of Sept. 30, 1951.

"Estimated as of Mar. 1, 1952.

8 Dec. 31.

* Amounts presented in table C-3 of European Briefing Book, revision of Mar. 5, 1952.

NOTE.-Conversion into United States dollars at rates prevailing in March 1952 used for conversion for

all years.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Do you have them on the national debt of Great Britain in the last 3 or 4 years?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I think, by and large, the British pretty closely balanced their budget. They had a very heavy national debt as a result of the war. I would be glad to supply those figures.

(See insert above.)

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Do you have those figures on Belgium and the Netherlands?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I haven't those figures offhand. I will be glad to supply them to you.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. And Italy, also.

(See insert above.)

Senator HICKENLOOPER. One of the difficulties in Europe today is the question of raw materials, such as steel and iron and the availability of those materials-steel, iron, and coal. Is that not true? They are short of those things?

IRON, STEEL, AND COAL SHORTAGE IN EUROPE AND POSSIBILITY OF EXPANDED GERMAN PRODUCTION

Mr. HARRIMAN. In coal, Europe is short. They have expanded their steel production and are continuing to do so, and we hope that in time they will get to a balance on steel.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. But at the present time they are deficient on iron?

Mr. HARRIMAN. Particularly the British are deficient on steel.
Senator HICKENLOOPER. How about the French?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I think the French are pretty closely in balance. Senator HICKENLOOPER. Well, the German steel operations in the Ruhr are set today at an arbitrary limit, are they not, on production? Mr. HARRIMAN. Under the Schuman plan, the production, the German production of both coal and steel will be expanded.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Do you happen to know what their coal and steel production was prior to or during the early part of World War II, and how it compares now with what it was then?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I have got a table here which I would be glad to put in the record, or if you want me to I can read it. It compares, country by country, prewar as compared to now, calendar year 1951. I could give you the totals. In coal, 338 million tons for 1938.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Does that 1938 figure include Britain? Mr. HARRIMAN. Yes, the figures I am giving you are the NATO countries. The Western German production, Federal Republic production, before 1938, was 136 million, and is now 118 million. That is less.

From the standpoint of steel, the NATO countries had about 25 million tons in 1938. These are metric tons. And they had 40 millions, estimated, for 1951. Germany had about 18 million tons; now, 13% million tons. But it is expected to expand.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Is there any reason other than the arbitrary or ordered limitations on German production of coal and steel as to why they should not get back up to production?

Mr. HARRIMAN. Now that the Schuman plan is about to go into effect, the German production of both steel and coal, is expected to go up substantially.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Did they expect to equal perhaps the 1938 levels of production?

Mr. HARRIMAN. I don't know. I can't give you that exact figure at the present time. I think on coal it is hoped that it will be more than prewar. On steel, I doubt if they get quite to the prewar level. Senator HICKENLOOPER. Would there be any reason why it should not go to the prewar level?

Mr. HARRIMAN. Well, it is a question of facilities.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. And does that involve the facilities which the Allies dismantled after the war? I mean, is that a part of a reason why production is short?

Mr. HARRIMAN. That is part of the reason, yes.

RECEIPT OF RAW MATERIALS FROM DEPENDENT AREAS OF OUR PARTNERS

Senator HICKENLOOPER. There has been something said here from time to time in the past about the securing of raw materials.

Have we been successful in getting all the raw materials that we need from the areas under the control of our so-called allies in Europe? Or have we had some difficulties in getting raw materials since the war?

Mr. HARRIMAN. Since Korea? Senator HICKENLOOPER. No, since 1946. not a war, I understand.

Korea is a police action,

Mr. HARRIMAN. We have worked with the European countries to expand production of the critical war materials in a number of different countries where they have either a responsibility or an influence. The fact that in 1949 we had a slight recession in our business here slowed this process up. But after Korea, we have been working with them vigorously to expland their production of raw materials, and, of course, the 5-percent counterparts in many of the countries have been used to buy raw materials and put in our stockpile. Practically all the 5-percent counterparts of the United Kingdom, of course, were used in this fashion. They gave us raw materials to cover the 5-percent counterpart.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Have we received, to your knowledge, any raw materials for free from these countries by way of reverse economic assistance in the mutual program?

Mr. HARRIMAN. Under the original Marshall plan, 5 percent of the counterparts were set aside to be used.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. That is the amount of money.

Mr. HARRIMAN. But it would have reduced the amount of aid by that amount. There has been no program of any free lend-lease back and forth.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. I would have to dispute that it reduced the amount of aid by that much, because that amount is a hundred percent American money.

Mr. HARRIMAN. We got back 5 percent of the counterpart arriving from the money we gave them.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. I think that is very generous of them, but nevertheless it is a hundred percent American money. I do not see that that can be counted as any gift on their part. But I am wondering if we have got any tin and if we have any chromium or any tungsten or anything of that kind that any of these countries have, in a spirit of mutual cooperation under this act, given to us, during this period.

Mr. HARRIMAN. There has been no program proposed for reverse lend-lease.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Now, there is something in the paper here

Mr. HARRIMAN. We are attempting to get them on a basis where they don't need any more assistance from us, to get all of us on a payás-we-go basis. But that situation does not exist yet today.