Mr. CORLISS. Oh, you left the impression that it would ruin the railroads Mr. LYON. No, sir; I did not mean that. Mr. ADAMSON. If they quit bucking up against the offenses and observed the law, you do not mean to say that it would affect them? Mr. LYON. No, sir. Mr. CORLISS. It would not affect the railroads if they observed the law? Mr. LYON. No, sir. I do not care what the rates would be. Mr. LYON. Whatever the railroads say is to be the rate. Let them be honest and I will be honest, and let everybody else be honest; that is the common sense of it. The temper, if not the spirit, of railway managers toward the successful administration of the interstate-commerce law has become more hurtful to the railways than to the public. But these corporations are in no sense exempt from public opinion because of the nearly universal, if not organized, opposition to laws enacted for the purpose of regulating their relations with the people. It is not too much to assume that the people hold these laws in higher and higher esteem to the ratio of contempt for them and the constant violation of their terms by the railways. This conflict between the railways and the interstate-commerce enactment has well-nigh exhausted the patience. of the people and those who are appointed to execute its provisions. That the law itself has demonstrated that it needs some changes to make it more applicable to present needs none will deny. The public demands at the hands of Congress some radical improvements. What we need, in reference to the Interstate Commerce Commission, is that its powers shall be more definitely specified; that it shall have greater powers to enforce its orders. We need an interstate-commerce law, and that the powers of its Commission be defined. I believe there is but one way to maintain reasonable, fair, and just rates, and that is by giving the railways the right to establish a rate and then go to the Commission and have that rate indorsed; publish the rate and live up to it. In a word, be honest. Heretofore Congress has seemed slow and apparently indifferent, but we believe needed changes in the law will be obtained and justice be done to all. The CHAIRMAN. Let me revert to that subject which you were speaking of a while ago. Suppose the stockholders of the different carrying corporations turn over their powers to the board of directors; they in their turn turn over their powers to the general manager; the general manager abdicates in favor of the traffic manager; the traffic manager turns over the subject to the solicitors, to the rate solicitors, and they are the men who primarily make these illegal arrangements. Mr. LYON. You mean the subagents? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. Mr. LYON. No, sir: I do not believe that. I do not believe there was ever an agent on the line who voluntarily made a rate contrary to the powers over him. That is my experience in railroad matters, in shipping matters. The CHAIRMAN. At all events, these gentlemen who have this in charge have upon them the duty of securing returns that will pay dividends on the stock. Mr. LYON. I hope so. The CHAIRMAN. Now, it is your opinion that if large fines against the corporations should be levied Mr. LYON. Yes, sir; for each offense. The CHAIRMAN (continuing). So that these possible dividends would be diminished Mr. LYON. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN (continuing). That then the stockholders would have an interest Mr. LYON. No, sir; I think the whole business would stop if they had a few fines to pay. The CHAIRMAN. The stockholders would be the men who would be burt? Mr. LYON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Through the payment of these fines? Mr. LYON. No, no; they would not pay the fines. The CHAIRMAN. They would pay them until they learned the lesson. Mr. LYON. That would be a very short time. If you would put a sufficient fine on every car that went through from Chicago to New York on a cut rate, one offense would end it. The CHAIRMAN. That would be enough? Mr. LYON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I am inclined to think you are right. Mr. FLETCHER. What has been the rate on Chicago in the last year? Mr. LYON. On wheat? Mr. FLETCHER. Yes, sir. Mr. LYON. We do not handle the wheat that they do in Duluth. We do not handle so much as they do in Duluth. Mr. FLETCHER. Take all the grain in that way, and how much is the grain they handle there? Mr. LYON. I can't tell you that. There are books here on file which show it. The CHAIRMAN. I want to get your idea a little further about this diversion. Do you regard the shipments through Duluth as a diversion from Chicago-the natural channel? Mr. LYON. No, sir; the Lake route is a natural channel. The CHAIRMAN. Is the use of the Mississippi to New Orleans a diversion from natural channels? Mr. LYON. I think not. Yes; it might be if it reached into the State of Illinois. I assume that. There is a lot of territory there that might ship to Chicago or the other way, which is just on the dividing line; but there is a point called Monmouth Junction, just near Burlington, where we have a lot of stuff billed to the Mississippi River, and then it goes to New York by Monmouth Junction. That is one of the places. I do not remember the other point. The CHAIRMAN. Trace out the course of that route. generally go? What is its route to the seaboard? Where does it Mr. LYON. It would be by the way of Monmouth Junction and Burlington to the Chesapeake and Ohio. I do not remember the route. It goes to Newport News and Baltimore. The CHAIRMAN. It avoids Chicago. Mr. LYON. Yes, sir; a gentleman said to me the other day that "it does not make any difference what rate of freight I have I am always afraid that the man next to me has a better rate than I have." STATEMENT OF MR. T. W. TOMLINSON. Mr. TOMLINSON. I am the railway representative of the Chicago Live Stock Exchange, whom I represent before your honorable body. The live stock exchange last week considered the Corliss bill and directed me to come on here and express their views. I might also add that the Cattle Raisers' Association of Texas, with headquarters at Forth Worth, Tex., at its last annual meeting also had under consideration the so-called Corliss bill and adopted resolutions indorsing it, which mention that bill, and which are of course the best evidence that the bill was before them. I present these to you. RESOLUTION UNANIMOUSLY ADOPTED BY THE CATTLE RAISERS' ASSOCIATION OF TEXAS AT ITS ANNUAL MEETING HELD AT FORT WORTH, TEX., MARCH 12, 1902. Whereas the operations of the Interstate Commerce Commission under the present law are absolutely worthless, for the reason that they have no power to enforce their decisions; and Whereas there has been introduced in the House of Representatives of the Fiftyseventh Congress, by Congressman J. B. Corliss, of Michigan, a bill amending the interstate-commerce act, correcting the evils, and giving the Commission power to enforce its rulings, which has the unqualified indorsement of the Interstate Commerce Commission and shippers at large throughout the country; and Whereas the live-stock interests of the United States are heavy shippers and therefore interested in anything pertaining to governing transportation: Therefore, be it Resolved, That the Cattle Raisers' Association of Texas urge the members of Congress to vote for the passage of this amendment to the interstate-commerce act, and be it further Resolved, That the secretary of this association is hereby instructed to send certified copies of this resolution to the Committee on Interstate Commerce of the House, and also to write personal letters to the members of Congress and Senators from Texas urging work for the passage of this measure. NATIONAL LIVE STOCK ASSOCIATION, DENVER, COLO. The following memorial was unanimously adopted by the fifth annual convention of the National Live Stock Association, held in Chicago, Ill., December 3, 4, 5, 6, 1901: To the honorable President, the Senate, and the House of Representatives of the United States: The National Live Stock Association respectfully represents that it is an organization composed of over 150 of the principal stock raisers, feeders' and breeders' organizations, live-stock exchanges, stock-yards companies, and various commercial organizations of the United States, whose names we append hereto; that it represents more than $4,000,000,000 of invested capital, and that it was organized for the purpose of promoting the best interests of the live-stock industry of this country. This association, in behalf of its constituency, earnestly urges upon Congress the great importance and increasing need of Federal legislation, which will give to the Interstate Commerce Commission adequate power to correct discrimination, remove preferences, abate unreasonable rates, and where necessary, to prescribe the maximum and minimum rates, making its decision effective pending any appeal to the courts. When the present interstate-commerce law was enacted in 1887 it was at least popularly supposed, and we believe clearly intended, that it gave to the Interstate Commerce Commission, after due hearing and investigation, the power to say what was a reasonable or unreasonable rate and to enforce its decisions. Court decisions have since declared that the Interstate Commerce Commission does not have the power to fix rates for the future, either directly or by indirection. As substantially every complaint that has been, or would be, brought before the Commission involves the question of the reasonableness of rates, it can be readily seen that these court decisions practically wipe out the only real power the Commission was supposed to have, and limits its usefulness to the collection and promulgation of statistics. While governmental control over railroad charges through the medium of the Interstate Commerce Commission has been gradually fading away, the general railroad situation has undergone portentous changes. Little independent carriers have been forced to the wall and absorbed by their larger competitors, which in turn have combined with or sold out to other larger competing systems, until to-day, by this cen tralization, the rail transportation facilities of this country are practically controlled by scarce half a dozen different interests. By these transitions, reorganizations, and combinations, added burdens have not only been placed upon the man who pays the freight by reason of increases in the fixed charges or indebtedness of the railroads, but his sole remaining safeguard by free competition has been virtually elim inated, so that the public, which now has greater need of intelligent and effective Federal supervision and regulation of railroad charges, has less protection to-day than previous to the enactment of the present interstate-commerce law. The general and marked advance in rates during the past three years of unexampled prosperity to the railroads were apparently unnecessary and seemingly unwarranted upon any other theory than the intent of the railroads to exact all they could. The multiple economies of railroad operation, together with the enormous increase in the volume of the traffic, would seem to logically suggest a reduction instead of an advance. Their action, however, enables us to unmistakably forecast what they would do, unrestrained by Federal control, when by further consolidations or by other agencies competition becomes entirely stifled. The members of the National Live Stock Association recognize that the railroads are powerful agencies of progress, and that more than any other factor. they have contributed to the development of the country. The superb service they perform merits our commendation. We expect to pay the railroads the cost of the service they render, together with a reasonable profit on their investment; we do not want the service for any less, nor ought we to be compelled to pay more. We are not presuming to say what are or may be reasonable and fair rates, but we do emphatically protest against the railroads being the sole arbiters of their charges and exacting what they think the traffic will stand, or, in plainer language, all they can get. If railroad rates are fair and reasonable the railroads should not fear any investigation of them by an impartial tribunal. The objections they make against the proper Federal supervision of rates by an expert commission confirms the suspicion that railroad rates need regulating. Either the Government must assume at once an intelligent and comprehensive control over railroad charges or prepare for absolute ownership of the transportation facilities of this country. For these, among many other patent reasons, the members of the National Live Stock Association respectfully request Congress to give early attention to this muchneeded legislation, which has already been too long delayed. Attest: JOHN W. SPRINGER, President. The CHAIRMAN. I might say to you here that these hearings are for the purpose of discussing all of the subjects that relate to transportation, and there is another one that members of the association connected with the Cattle Dealers' Association have some interest in, namely, that of increasing the number of hours that animals may be retained on cars. I simply mention this to say that if it is your pleasure at this time to discuss that it will be entirely proper to do so. Mr. TOMLINSON. I thank you for your suggestion, and in line with that, when I have finished, I will be very much pleased to say what the live stock people feel in respect to that bill. The National Live Stock Association, with headquarters at Denver, Colo., and which includes in its membership practically all the live stock organizations of this country, with a membership of about 120, have also, at different and numerous times, passed resolutions recommending to Congress the advisability and necessity of the proposed changes in this present interstate-commerce law, and I would like, with your permission, to file as a part of my remarks the resolutions of both the National Live Stock Association and of the Cattle Raisers' Association. Cojointly with Judge Springer I am directed to represent the National I-C L- -7 Live Stock Association in addition to my representation of the Chicago Live Stock Exchange and the Cattle Raisers' Association and the National Live Stock Exchange. These organizations practically cover the entire live stock interests of the country. The Live Stock Exchange was a participant in the interstate law convention, held a short time ago, which framed the present Corliss bill, in a measure, and we feel it due to ourselves and your committee and to the public and to the railroads, that we come here and at least express our views upon this bill. The live stock industry supplies a very great traffic for the railroads. On some Western railroads it is as high as 12 per cent, averaging perhaps a little under that. When you consider the vast number of other articles incidental to the operations of the packing houses you will see what a great volume of traffic really arises from the live stock industry. This industry is interested not only in the relative equality of rates, but is deeply interested in their inherent reasonableness. We do not want our traffic transported at any thing less than the cost of the service together with a fair added profit, and we also wish other classes of freight handled on the same basis. We protest against discriminations, and preferences, and against the carriage of some freight at less than the cost of service, thus placing added burdens on other articles. We believe that such is the wish of your committee. The CHAIRMAN. Will it embarrass you at all to ask you questions? Mr. TOMLINSON. Not in the slightest. I will probably make a very poor attempt at answering them, but I shall try. The CHAIRMAN. You have made reference to articles that are carried below cost? Mr. TOMLINSON. Yes, sir. Let The CHAIRMAN. Give this committee some illustration of that. me say to you-you are a practical man, I think-that we have our own theories with regard to general legislation, but we have not the practical knowledge that you have. Now, what we want to get at is what you can give us-illustrations of the case that you have generally referred to. Mr. TOMLINSON. I believe the railroads continually say their export rates on grain are too low. As to the rates that come particularly under my observation, I might say that the present rates on fresh meat, say from some of the Western markets to the Mississippi River, or to their eastern junction, via Chicago, are too low. Take, for instance, the through rates on fresh meats from St. Paul, through to the seabord, or to the Eastern points. The proportion accruing west of Chicago is 134 cents per 100 pounds, with a minimum of 20,000 pounds per car, or $27 per The live-stock rate is twice that. Now one of those is wrong. Mr. MANN. You say the rate on dressed beef is too low. What is the rate on dressed beef from Chicago to New York, now? Mr. TOMLINSON. Forty cents. car. Mr. MANN. Is that less than cost? Mr. TOMLINSON. No, sir. Mr. MANN. That is undoubtedly above the cost? Mr. TOMLINSON. I think it is, probably, about a fair rate. Mr. MANN. I am not speaking about whether it is a fair rate, but the cost. Is it not above the cost? |