a man working in many instances carelessly or indifferently, while the man working right next door in private employment would have to step up, regard that fellow as loafing on the job. It does considerable harm in that way. I am wondering about your statement during the informal discussion that you know of projects that are important and useful.

Mr. HOPKINS. Senator, I think I can say that the projects have improved 100 percent. For instance, we have a million people working on about 600 projects, under competent engineering direction. We are now building a good many swimming pools, we are building brand-new parks, we are building sewers, we are building extensions of water mains. I think today our work program, the projects upon which we are working, are much better than they have ever been

before, far better.

Senator HAYDEN. What are they doing in respect to surveys, topographical surveys, and such as that?

Mr. HOPKINS. Under the Civil Works Administration we had a big project under the Geological Survey which we did not finish. I understand the people interested in that are trying to get a special

appropriation

Senator HAYDEN. These so-called "white collared" men who are

engineers could work on that?

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes.

Senator HAYDEN. It seems to me the making of accurate topowould supper basic information that would be valuable for all time graphic maps by field engineers who are able to do the work properly

Senator McKELLAR. What do you pay those men on that work? Mr. HOPKINS. Under the Civil Works Administration those engineers got from $20 to $24 a week. Under this program, in a relief benefit of this type, we would probably pay somewhere around $15 a week. Under our present program we are not using the Civil Works Senator ADAMs. What has your experience been as to the diligence indicate that we have had about 90 percent efficiency. We have had Mr. HOPKINS Our reports from the various Federal Departments reports indicating 100 percent efficiency on certain projects. We get reports that the total costs of some of the major projects are very much less than under contract. The trouble is, you are always well I can take you out into one section of Washington and show you a very fine swimming pool and park, one of the finest in the country. I can take you down to Charleston and show you a Senator DICKINSON. How is that going to be maintained? Mr. HOPKINS. Entirely by the city. Senator BERNES. The taxpayers?

Mr. HOPKINS. I think today, of the 1,000,000 people employed on work relief, 150,000 are working on rural roads.

Senator MCKELLAR. If they are properly handled, that would be very advantageous, would it not?

Mr. HOPKINS. There is no question about that. When we get to working on country roads, we make a tie-up with the county people building roads. We don't just go out on our own initiative. We build roads that are the kind of roads that the road people want built. Senator MCCARRAN. Does the $15 a week to these people include their maintenance?

Mr. HOPKINS. That is their total benefit.

Senator MCCARRAN. There is no maintenance aside from that? Mr. HOPKINS. Not from the Government. There may be instances where they have some small sources of additional income.

Senator BYRNES. You do not want to pay compensation which would prevent them from taking private employment?

Mr. HOPKINS. That is true. That was one objection to the Civil Works Administration.

Senator HAYDEN. Under the Civil Works Administration I understand they could not do outside work; that if they did, they lost their jobs. Was that true?

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes; that is true. They could take no outside employment.

Senator HAYDEN. Now you are encouraging them to get outside employment, if possible?

Mr. HOPKINS. We are encouraging them to get off the relief rolls and get jobs.

Senator HAYDEN. You do not want to make the relief rolls so attractive that they will not seek other employment?

Mr. HOPKINS. We want to make the benefits small enough to encourage them to get off the relief rolls and find employment, if possible. The type of people we are talking about have made from $75 to $100 a week.

Senator HAYDEN. I have heard it suggested that some were kept on the work while they were taking outside employment.

Mr. HOPKINS. I have no doubt there were some. It should not have happened. That is against our rules and regulations. The average benefits we are paying these million people now per week is this: For the week ending May 31 the average was $10.60. These people are working largely in the industrial cities. If you multiply that by 4%, you get $45 a month as the average monthly benefit. Senator HALE. What are they under now?

Mr. HOPKINS. That is the local relief administration.
Senator HALE. Those are Federal projects?

Mr. HOPKINS. No.

Senator HALE. And you have about a million people engaged in that?

Mr. HOPKINS. About a million people. There is an enormous pressure on us from practically every city in America to increase the number. My own feeling is that we should improve the quality of our work program. We are now in the summer period and the argument will be made that the summer is the time to do this work. I feel that we should improve the quality of the work, but not encourage the States to increase the work program in the summer.

Senator DICKINSON. One thing that has impressed me very much in some of the rural sections is that this work has been made so attractive to a lot of farmers who have been able to maintain themselves and get a little tobacco money and get gasoline for their Ford, they join the C.W.A. rolls and you can not get them back onto the farm. Senator McCARRAN. That is true.

Mr. HOPKINS. That is a serious problem, and for that reason we have discontinued all work relief in rural areas under 5,000. That was an arbitrary action. You could perfectly well make the argument: "Why did you stop at 5,000?" That would be difficult to answer. That was a problem that had to be dealt with in some way. Senator DICKINSON. My idea is that you ought to go in the other direction. I think it ought to be 10,000.

Mr. HOPKINS. All the benefits we are giving in rural areas are in the form of direct relief. I would like before we get through to develop for you our three-point program in the rural areas. I do not mean we have discontinued relief in rural areas. Under our work program, in my opinion, we could without any difficulty provide work benefits for 3,000,000 of the 4,000,000.

Two things happen when you increase work: One is that the minute you open the work program, thousands of people who have not been receiving direct benefits, will say that they want a job. When we go and investigate them we find that they are in need. We do not know how they have got along before. The old argument is completely thrown overboard, that if you force them to work you will not have the demand for relief. Just the opposite is really true. The moment we announce work there is an enormous demand. These people want to work. There is no question about that. I think it should be said that in every city in America there is a wide demand that the relief officials increase the number on the rolls to give them work relief.

The second cause for the increase in cost that it does cost more money for materials. We are not going to permit the cities to put them on work that is not necessary or work that the city itself should perform. We are not going to let them clean streets, for example. We are not going to let them do the type of thing that the city ordinarily does. We are not going to have them raking leaves, or cleaning streets, or removing garbage. If we are going to increase the work program, it is a question of who is going to put up the money.

Those are two factors that require very serious consideration in the increase of such a program.

Our general program is divided into three points: First, a program for industrial cities, where the benefits will be of two kinds. One is work relief for the million people who are now working on work relief, depending upon the needs of the particularf amilies. The rest receive direct relief.

We disassociated our rural program from our program of work relief and the program in big cities, with totally different types of projects. We found that by using uniform methods we were really giving undesirable benefits in rural areas. We are trying to get rid of work relief in rural areas. The program in rural areas is directed toward rehabilitation; that is, giving them benefits that will lead to independence. Therefore, we have completely shifted that program. We put a new in charge of it. Instead of a person who is familiar

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with the needs in cities, we put that program in charge of people who had the complete rural background, and that knew these farm families. Senator HALE. Local people?

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes. We organized in every rural community in America what we call a rural rehabilitation committee. That committee is made up usually of the extension director, a country banker, a farmer, and three or four people.

Senator DICKINSON. Do they work without compensation?

Mr. HOPKINS. Yes; they are volunteers. In each State we have a similar committee made up of perhaps six or seven people. To these State committees we say:

We are not par

Last year we spent so much in the rural part of your State. ticularly satisfied with the way it was spent, or the benefits that were received, and we gather that you are not. You live in the State and are familiar with the rural conditions. We are prepared to give you a sum of money for rural work, which you in turn may either give to or lend to a family you think should get a benefit.

These State committees organize these county rural committees, and the State committee says to the county committee:

You know these local families. You know that giving work relief to a farmer when he should be planting his crop, or even a farm laborer, or a tenant farmer, or a share-cropper is absurd. But we ought to get out of the relief business in rural America. On the other hand, we know there are many rural families in this country who are in need. Whatever funds we make available to you we want you to be sure that they will be used for the benefit of those families that are really in need.

Since that program was announced we have reduced the number of families on relief rolls in rural areas to the extent of 50 percent. When you have got the rural people into the picture, they realize that if they are going to give benefit to the rural families it is better to give them those benefits in such way that they can establish a home and establish their independence.

One of the first things they do is to try to get a piece of land, either by lease or by some method by which the man may ultimately own the land, if the local rural committee feels that if this fellow gets integrated there he can make his own living. They have made deals with landlords, to permit families to live on certain tracts of land. The committe and the landlord will sit down and work out an agreement. The committee might agree to fix up the tenant house, put a roof on it, at a cost of perhaps $200 or $100, and the landlord would agree to let this man have that land for 2 years, and later let him have it at such-and-such a rental. We might lend him a mule. might buy some minor equipment, chickens, cows, and what not, whatever that rural committee thought that farmer should have. Senator TYDINGS. Do you buy land for them?

Mr. HOPKINS. Not exactly. In some instances where a family is located on a piece of land, or can locate on a piece of land, the committee had made arrangements to underwrite the first payment. Senator TYDINGS. You take what security you can get? Mr. HOPKINS. Yes.

Senator TYDINGS. It is not a gift, where you can avoid it?

Mr. HOPKINS. That is true. In every rural community where we have been really getting the right people to run it, we have got a complete favorable background in terms of rural public opinion. These people approach that problem in a very careful and cautious

men

way. They are going to put money into the rehabilitating of farm the1 families in a way that will be beneficial to them. We will doubtless make some mistakes. We will doubtless spend some money without getting the desired results.

Senator TYDINGS. Do you mind being interrupted for a question or two?

Mr. HOPKINS. Not at all.

Senator TYDINGS. I should like to ask you if these conditions are pretty much general, or whether they are confined to particular sections, like the South or the North?

Mr. HOPKINS. I would say that program would be concentrated primarily in the South and in the drought area.

Senator TYDINGS. Are there any in my State?
Mr. HOPKINS. Certain counties.

Senator TYDINGS. Perhaps some fishing projects?
Mr. HOPKINS. Yes.

Senator HALE. Are you doing anything in any of the Eastern

States?

Mr. HOPKINS Oh, yes; Ohio and Indiana and some others.
Senator H. Any in New England?

Mr. Happens. No. We are thinking of doing something in the
Along that same line?

State of Num.

Senator HL

Mr. Horkins. Yes.

Senator Fat. We have a good many abandoned farms in New

Engiand

Mr. Horas Yes. We are using farms that cities and counties have taken ever. I am amazed to find out how much land of that kind the A We have used land taken over by counties or public bodies. We have used in your State, Senator Byrnes, 75 or 80 thousand sores afblic lands; that is, publicly owned lands. Set BYRNES. You did not have to pay for that?

Mr. HOPKINS. No.

Seacor HAYDEN. Was that land acquired through foreclosure by M. HOPKINS. No; generally taken in through tax sales.

Feders, isna banks?

Sensor BYRNES. I was wondering if there might be some danger of people ring to get rid of land by unloading it upon your organizaWho would determine the price or the value of land?

Mr. HOPKINS. That is usually determined by the rural committee, s we insist upon having a banker on each committee. Sensor BYRNES. Do you have a committee in each county? M. HOPKINS. We have one in each county.

S HALE. Who appoints the committee?

M HOPKINS. The State committee appoints the county com-
Setor TYDINGS. This money would be Federal money?
S TYDINGS. Those are Federal projects?

M HOPKINS. State projects.

Is this

a

loan to the State?

Senator BYRNES. I do not know that I exactly understand your M HOPKINS. No; it is a grant to the State. We give it to the

procedure.

night set up a non-profit corporation to loan these