Senator ADAMS. Now, if you will give us an idea about that section you are interested in.

Senator MCKELLAR. What page?

Senator ADAMS. Page 63.

Mr. JONES. Page 63.

I might add, in my discussion with the President about this, as well as how much he might need to call upon us for relief, that he has indicated that he did not expect to call upon us for a great deal of money. At one time he asked me if we could provide as much as $350,000,000, and I told him I thought that we could, and in later talking with him I have gotten the impression that he expected to call upon us probably for less than that amount for relief.

Well, no other figure has ever been mentioned. That was just the general trend of the conversation.

Senator BYRNES. Mr. Jones, as a result of that, the result would be if an emergency arose, he could call upon you to the extent that you have indicated.

Mr. JONES. Exactly.

Senator BYRNES. While the Congress is not in session, if some situation arose.

Mr. JONES. Simply by Executive order, he could stop the lending of money.

Senator BYRNES. Yes; and then use it for whatever he pleased. Mr. JONES. Yes.

Senator BYRNES. If he wanted to stop the authorizations of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation.

Mr. JONES. Yes.

Senator BYRNES. What is your suggestion?

Mr. JONES. I spent a good deal of time yesterday with the representatives of Secretary Ickes, about their funds, and that was discussed last night with the President, and he would like for the Public Works to have $500,000,000.

Senator ADAMS. He would like to have $500,000,000?

Mr. JONES. $500,000,000 available for the public works.

Senator MCKELLAR. Do you want this particular provision, this particular restriction on the Reconstruction Finance Corporation stricken out?

Senator BYRNES. Is that the restriction that you are referring to? Senator MCKELLAR. You were talking about it being made immediately available.

Mr. JONES. My impression is that the President is not interested in the language. He is interested in getting another $500,000,000 for the Public Works.

Senator BYRNES. In other words, this bill provides a limitation of $500,000,000, as Secretary Ickes has said, or loans or for grants for public works and it is as to that provision that you are now addressing yourself?

Mr. JONES. Yes; and you see he has got only some $800,000,000 to get that out of.

Senator ADAMS. $899,000,000.

Mr. JONES. $899,000,000, and therefore that would only leave approximately $400,000,000 for relief.

And Secretary Ickes is afraid, as I understand, that he will not get his $500,000,000.

Senator MCKELLAR. For relief. That would make about $1,200,- der 000,000; I would estimate about $1,300,000,000

the

Senator DICKINSON. Let me correct that statement. I do not r understand that. In the first place, you have $899,675,000, to be en allocated by the President for the purpose of the aforesaid act.

Now, that is a direct appropriation. You cannot get away from t that. Then you have the advancement privilege of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, which involves and is a variable, according to Chairman Jones here of $300,000,000.

Mr. JONES. What is that; that is the Reconstruction Finance Corporation; how are they going to get our funds? Senator DICKINSON (reading):

Provided, that any savings or unobligated balances in funds of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation may, in the discretion of the President, be transferred and applied to the purpose of the Federal Emergency Relief Act of 1933 and/or title II of the National Industrial Recovery Act, and any unobligated balances in appropriations including allocations of appropriations of the Federal Emergency Administration of Public Works may, in the discretion of the President, be transferred and applied to the purposes of such Federal Emergency Relief Act of 1933.

Mr. JONES. Now, in considering that last night with the President, he felt if Secretary Ickes could have $500,000,000, the authority to allocate any of our funds to Public Works may be erased from there and only confined to giving him the privilege of drawing upon us for relief. I asked the President about that last night.

Senator HALE. Where is that authority in this bill?
Mr. JONES. He just read it.

Senator DICKINSON. You mean you want this fund segregated and divided up as between Public Works and Emergency Relief?

Mr. JONES. What I am trying to keep is some little understanding of our corporation and the relief.

Senator DICKINSON. And what is going to become of the funds. Mr. JONES. Yes; and if we are to allocate $250,000,000 to $350,000,000 for relief, that we should not also be expected by the act, to provide anything for public works, only that as later stated in the bill, where we will buy their securities.

Senator MCKELLAR. Your idea is to limit the public works to $500,000,000 and strike out this proviso, that it may be added, that the unexpended balance may be added, and provide then that they may be added for relief purposes; is that right?

Mr. JONES. That is right.

Senator BYRNES. As a matter of fact, you say that under this language-you say there would be available to the President, if the Reconstruction Finance Corporation continued to operate, there would be available to him for transfers either to relief purposes, for relief purposes, or for public works, of how much?

Mr. JONES. I should say from $250,000,000 to $350,000,000.

Senator BYRNES. So that it means $250,000,000 to $350,000,000 that would, by that language, be available if the President, in the exercise of his discretion, desires to add to either the expenditures for public works or for relief.

Mr. JONES. Yes.

Senator BYRNES. Now, the only other funds-first, there is in there the situation, the limitation-that is, the amount to be made available

M

under the direct appropriation of $899,000,000-and under this power to the President this shall not exceed $500,000,000.

Mr. JONES. Yes.

Senator BYRNES. Secretary Ickes before this committee asked that that proviso be eliminated and then gave a statement of his reasons justifying it. You think it ought to be left in there?

Mr. JONES. No; I am stating that the President said to me last night--I told him that I was coming before this committee, going to appear before this committee, and he said he would like for Public Works to have $500,000,000, from whatever source.

Senator BYRNES. Yes; all right. Then, in the next paragraph, the Reconstruction Finance Corporation is authorized to buy obligations, but under that power, the money derived goes into the Treasury and would not be available.

Mr. JONES. That is right.

Senator BYRNES. Secretary Ickes has suggested language which would make it available.

Senator DICKINSON. A revolving fund.

Senator BYRNES. Provided, that at no time that the amount of securities held by you as a result of purchase from him should exceed $250,000,000.

Mr. JONES. Yes.

Senator BYRNES. If that were done and the proviso left, then there would be the possibility that you would have $500,000,000, plus such amount as he would secure from the purchase of securities by you, provided it did not exceed $250,000,000 at any one time.

Mr. JONES. Provided, yes; but you see we could buy his securities and resell them.

Senator GLASS. To whom?

Mr. JONES. Anybody that would buy them.

Senator GLASS. Who would buy them?

Mr. JONES. Well, there is a market for them. There is a demand for some of our securities.

Senator BYRNES. As a matter of fact, he stated there was a market for some of the securities.

Mr. JONES. He sold one little issue, I think, of about $1,000,000 at a premium. They might have been from Virginia.

Senator GLASS. They were bonds from my city. I made him admit here the other day that my city did a very foolish thing borrowing the money.

Mr. JONES. We have sold some several million dollars worth-I have forgotten how many of our securities and we have a market for them. That is, we have made self-liquidating loans, like the purchase of municipal securities, and we could sell more if we wanted to. Senator GLASS. You mean the securities that you have derived from loans you have made.

Mr. JONES. Yes, from the purchase of municipal securities.

Senator GLASS. Yes.

Mr. JONES. From municipalities when we were handling the selfliquidating loans, we made a total of about $200,000,000 or something like that.

Senator BYRNES. Mr. Jones, would it not be better to amend the language in lines 20 to 24, because as it now stands, the amount of money available for these grants and loans would cause a division