necessary for the administration and protection of the forests and then the other system of forest highways which are relatively high-t standard roads.

They are not surfaced, concrete or anything of that nature, but res they are a good standard of alinement and so forth.

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Those forest highways being necessary to the forests or primarily The important for public travel.

Now, in the section on forest roads and trails, which are primarily Wit necessary to the forests like this, the Public Works gave us an allot-w ment of $10,000,000. That was given at the end of last August. al Within the fiscal year 1934 we expect that 67 percent of that will be expended and disbursed. The balance of about $3,277,000 remains on July 1, and all construction work in all States will have been stopped by the end of August, or may be slightly earlier.

Senator HAYDEN. That is to say all of the $10,000,000 allocated by the Public Works for forest roads and trails would have been expended by the end of this summer.

Mr. NORCROSS. For construction purposes. You understand we have to make arrangements for maintenance, but construction contracts will stop then, and work in several of the Southern States has already been stopped or is just about at an end.

Senator MCKELLAR. What appropriation did you have in the regular appropriation bill?

Mr. NORCROSS. We had none.

Senator MCKELLAR. None last year?

Mr. NORCROss. Not for this particular work.

Senator HAYDEN. It is handled through the Public Works Administration?

Mr. NORCROSS. It is all handled through the Public Works Administration.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, did you not have an appropriation for forest roads?

Mr. NORCROSS. Before you came in, Senator, I explained the two different parts of our work, and I am talking about what is sometimes known as forest roads and trails, or development roads and trails, those are primarily important to the forests.

Senator MCKELLAR. Where have you put the $10,000,000 of the P.W.A.?

Mr. NORCROSS. It has been expended in about 30 States. Just where it has gone is shown in that tabulation which I furnished to the Senate Committee on Post offices appropriation bill. Shall I continue? Senator HAYDEN. Go ahead.

Mr. NORCROSS. Public Works had asked us along in March as to how much money could be efficiently spent and what was needed from the standpoint of the forests and also for employment prior to June 15, 1935. Our estimate at that time was $18,000,000. That is before the end of the Public Works money.

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Expressing the situation in another way, out of this we had an allotment of $10,000,000. That work was very promptly started, because it was handled entirely by the day-labor method and there were several thousand projects, all small, and for a small number of men, and very simple in character.

The labor is recruited almost entirely from the people immediately adjoining the forests or within the forests and near the projects. Within less than 10 months all of the work had been put under way and within 10 months of the Public Works allotment 79 percent of the total allotment had been disbursed, and within 12 months of the Public Works allotment all of the money for construction will be

gone.

Now, the other on the other system, is the forest highways system. The allotment of Public Works was $15,000,000. Within the fiscal year about one-third of that will be disbursed. The balance remaining on July 1, undisbursed balance, will be about $10,132,000, all of which will all of the construction money-will have been obligated by contract by that time. At the present date some 82 to 90 percent of the total amount allotted for construction has been placed under contract.

Senator HAYDEN. How do you take care of furnishing work under those contracts?

Mr. NORCROSS. That work will be done according to the Bureau of Public Roads by January.

Senator MCKELLAR. You have a forest in Tennessee, in the mountain district of east Tennessee. Have you built any roads?

Mr. NORCROss. Yes, sir.

Senator MCKELLAR. Whereabouts?

Mr. NORCROSS. I could not answer that question, Senator, but I will supply the information for you.

Senator MCKELLAR. All right.

Senator HAYDEN. Let me see if I have got the picture perfectly clear in my mind, that all of the forest roads and trails money, that is, all of the $10,000,000 allotted for that purpose by the Public Works Administration will be actually expended so far as construction is concerned for this period.

Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. And all of the $15,000,000 allocated for forest highways will be expended by the end of the present calendar year? Mr. NORCROSS. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. And then you would go into next spring, that is, the following construction season, which is in the last half of the fiscal year 1935, for both purposes with, according to the House bill, $8,730,000 as compared with $25,000,000 that you had under the Public Works Administration.

Mr. NORCROSSs. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. And for that reason, you believe that the amount should be raised to $10,000,000 to conform with the appropriations for the 2 following years?

Mr. NORCROSS. That is, of course, to be determined by the committee. The Bureau of Public Roads, and we, have estimated that at least $10,000,000 could be efficiently expended within the years for MAT forest roads and trails, because we have already done it and the work will move more smoothly than it did a year ago, because there were necessarily some delays on account of regulations and the setting up of procedure under the Public Works.

Senator HAYDEN. You say $10,000,000 for work, from the Public Works, whereas this figure is for both purposes here.

Mr. NORCROSS. I was just telling what could be done and the Bureau of Public Roads, and as a matter of fact, within the month, they could put $15,000,000 under contract within 6 months, an additional $16,000,000 under contract. That is our ability to do the work. Of course $10,000,000 may limit the total amount that may be given. Senator HAYDEN. How long would it take you to complete the system of forest highways that have now been surveyed and designated in the various States in that category?

Mr. NORCROSS. I think it is 18 years.
Senator HAYDEN. I have that record.

Senator DICKINSON. Have we now gotten down to the time where we are considering how much money it is possible to spend?

Senator HAYDEN. No; they have a planned system of highways, and his testimony before the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads was that it would take 18 years at the present rate of expenditure to complete the roads to the standard on the planned system.

The only fact I am seeking to develop is that this was an operation to continue for a number of years. The fact that he has developed that they have here $10,000,000 for forest roads and trails last year from the Public Works and $15,000,000 for forest highways, and that all that sum of money would be actually spent on construction by the end of the present calendar year

Senator HALE. Calendar or fiscal year?

Senator HAYDEN. Calendar year; and for the next fiscal year the House has allowed $6,730,000, whereas there is authorized $10,000,000, for both purposes, for which $25,000,000 was expended last year and at least $10,000,000 ought to be allotted for this fiscal year.

Senator MCKELLAR. Is there a budget estimate?

Senator HAYDEN. No; this increase is authorized by the bill that has passed both Houses of Congress.

Senator McKELLAR. That is different.

Senator HAYDEN. I think, Mr. Norcross, that is all.

Mr. NORCROSS. I do not need to explain sections 23 and 205, and that situation, as you have that fully in mind.

Senator HAYDEN. I think so.

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NATIONAL PARKS

STATEMENT OF A. E. DEMARAY, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL PARKS, BUILDINGS, AND RESERVATIONS

ROAD CONSTRUCTION

Senator HAYDEN. The next item is the appropriation for national parks for the next fiscal year, and Mr. Demaray is here, and I would like to have him make a statement with respect to that. I might add in the bill passed by both Houses of Congress, it is proposed to spend $7,500,000 each year for 3 years, fiscal years, on road construction proper in national parks.

Will you please tell the committee, Mr. Demaray, how much money has been allotted by the Public Works Administration to the national parks system for construction within the parks; how much has been spent, and what the situation is.

Mr. DEMARAY. The total Public Works allotments for roads and trails work was $24,884,144. Of that total sum, the Bureau of Public Roads is spending as major projects, $21,000,000, not $10,222.

And, their minor projects, extended under the forest act, under the Park Service direction is $3,873,921.

The forest account work is under the direction of the Forest Service and all of that will have been expended before the end of the present calendar year.

Of the major projects, under the direction of the Bureau of Public Roads there is at the present time $8,075,446 unobligated.

Now, the reason for that is that with the transfer of military parks on August 15 to the Park Service, the Park Service had to start out from scratch and develop the program. That work is now very rapidly proceeding under the Bureau of Public Roads, and within a very short time most of those projects will be under construction, be let by contract, and they have the $8,000,000; half of it is allocated specifically for the Smoky Mountain-Shenandoah Parkway to connect those two parks.

GREAT SMOKY

That is another job which we have had to start out from scratch, reconnaissance surveys and preliminary surveys, and final location surveys. We have just about completed our reconnaissance surveys and I think that, Senator, explains it.

Senator MCKELLAR. Are you going to build the road after it leaves Virginia, are you going to build the road all in one State, or are you going to divide it between North Carolina and Tennessee?

Mr. DEMARAY. I think it will be divided between North Carolina and Tennessee.

Senator MCKELLAR. Well, I think it depends very much upon that assurance as to my vote in the matter, because

Mr. DEMARAY. We have recommended that, Senator.

66572-34- -16

Senator MCKELLAR. It must be done that way, otherwise I am going to fight the appropriation. I am not going to permit that all to go into one State, because the park is a joint-State affair.

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Mr. DEMARAY. Well, it will be about evenly divided between the by three States. That is our recommendation to the Secretary.

Senator MCKELLAR. Of course, it runs through Virginia, to the Virginia line, and that is a matter that we have not anything to do with; but there is a route that has been advocated by the people of Asheville, to be regarded as the Asheville route, and according to theirs and according to the statements of some of the Departments, members of the Department that I have heard, they are figuring on sending that road around there. That would make it a commercial road, and I am not willing for that to be done at all.

I would like to know whether this road will be constructed in both States, and where it will be constructed. Can you give me that information during the day?

Mr. DEMARAY. We have recommended a route which I know will be satisfactory to you, Senator McKellar.

Now, the Secretary will undoubtedly announce that decision within a few days.

Senator MCKELLAR. It will be only on that assurance. gentlemen understand that.

You

Senator HAYDEN. As I understand, you have available as a carryover from the $24,000,000 allotment to you by the Public Works, you have available as a carry-over for the next fiscal year about $8,000,000.

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes; it will be about $8,000,000.

Senator HAYDEN. That is after July 1, you have a carry-over of about $8,000,000.

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes.

Senator HAYDEN. And of that amount, the bulk of the money is to go into the Shenandoah, Great Smoky, and other eastern parks. Mr. DEMARAY. That is right, sir

Senator HAYDEN. So that there will be no new work undertaken in the western parks at all.

Mr. DEMARAY. No.

Senator HAYDEN. Now, the authorization has been carried in the bill which has been passed by the House, to reduce the park appropriation from $24,000,000 allocated by the Public Works to $7,500,000 a year for 3 years, fiscal years.

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. Now, have you outlined anywhere, or an outline anywhere of the appropriations, and if you have, I would like to have that put in the record.

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir; we have this program which has been prepared by the Bureau of Public Roads, which shows the work that is now available for contract by July 1, 1934, and the additional amount that could be put under contract by January 1, 1935; if you would like to, I will insert that in the record.

and