Senator By NSS. You expect to support them upon their farms for the next 18 months, as the Senator says? M. HOPKINS I it is necessary. Sonator ByRNES. Yes. Mr. HOPKINS, If they are on the rolls and it is necessary. Mr. HOPKINS Based upon their needs which will be determined by the local people. I would do it; yes, if it had to be done, on a mum basis. Senator GLASS. Well, I am willing to appropriate any amount of money that is necessary for humanitarian purposes, less the amount that all the local communities and States themselves should appro priate for these purposes. I do not think the Federal Treasury ought to pay a dollar to Vir gmia until Virginia has exhausted its own resources and the respective Communities in the State have exhausted their resources, and I have nover known a time, and I do not believe it has come now, when Virginia is either unwilling or unable to take care of its own indigent Mr. HOPKINS. Well, Senator, I would simply like to indicate in the record that the previous governor, Governor Pollard, and the present governor, Governor Peery, and your associate, Senator Byrd, have all come to see me on various occasions urging very strongly that appro priations be made to the State of Virginia; legislative committees have called upon me to show me why Virginia has done its fair share; the cities and counties of Virginia have sent representatives to me showing that they have done their fair share, and we are now, month by month, making substantial appropriations to Virginia upon the urgent requests of the Governor of the State, Senator Byrd, and local public officials, including banks, and business men representing the State of Virginia. Senator GLASS. Well, I want to go on record that you have never had a visit from me. Mr. HOPKINS. That is quite true. Senator GLASS. You have never had an appeal from me and, if these facts are facts, I totally dissent from the former governor and from the present governor, and from my colleague, and from everybody else who has been to see you on the subject. And I think I am as well qualified, too, as they are. The former Governor-and this can go into the record, if you want it to go there the former Governor of Virginia headed a committee going around the State from community to community urging them to borrow Federal funds to do this thing that could have been better and more economically done by the communities themselves with their own funds, and Mr. Ickes, as the record will show, admitted to e the other day that in respect to my own community, where I live, they could have better sold their own bonds and at the premium that was offered, and that the public works have now realized they could have better sold their own bonds and done their own work under their wn administration than they have trooped up here to Washington and got Federal funds for the purpose; but the thing that I am most terested in and the pursuit of which I defer for the moment is whether there are funds available for this drought relief, without appropriating his money, more than a half a billion dollars for that purpose. Th My information is that there are such funds available. That the former Governor of Virginia told me personally that the reason he had applied for Federal funds was that everybody else was getting them and Virginia would have to pay the taxes and Virginia ought to get them too, and that is the only reason that they have been given the funds. Senator ADAMS. Probably this is aside, but the first time I met Mr. Hopkins, I went with Senator Byrd of Virginia in the interest of the cattle industry, and in an effort to induce the expenditure of money to take care of the surplus cattle on the ranges which would benefit not only the western, but the eastern cattle producers in Virginia. Senator GLASS. Yes; I know that. Senator TYDINGS. I want to say myself, that I have never been to see Mr. Hopkins to get any money. I think that he has been handling it all right, and I do not think it is necessary for me to do it, and the only reason that I have been interested is in making sure that my State would not have to bear a larger load than other States are bearing in comparison with the amount of their local contributions. I have never been down to get any money from Mr. Hopkins, or anybody else connected with the Government. Senator BYRNES. Reverting to the particular question you were discussing, I wonder if it is intended to confine this relief work to the Dakotas over Mr. HOPKINS. No. Senator BYRNES. Or, if at any place in the Nation, a farmer has had his crop destroyed by rains, which is the case in a number of States, you will also provide him with $40 a month or whatever is necessary until he can make another crop? Mr. HOPKINS. This drought appropriation is to be used and only used in the drought area. Those drought areas now contain 10,000,000 people. On the other hand, insofar as our own relief work is concerned, for which a bill is before your committee now, making funds available for the coming year, we would continue to give on the basis of the merits of the case determined on an individual farm-family basis, relief to the type of cases you have indicated and in any part of the United States. Senator DICKINSON. How do you determine when a county becomes a county in the drought area, and how do you determine that it is not? Mr. HOPKINS. That is decided by the Department of Agriculture on the basis of rainfall and on the basis of pasture that they have, and a number of needs, which Mr. Davis can tell you about, as to the different places. That is done in the Department of Agriculture. Senator DICKINSON. Do they take into account the ability of the county to issue their own bonds? Mr. HOPKINS. No; they do not. Senator DICKINSON. And sustain their own people? Mr. HOPKINS. No; they do not. Senator BYRNES. Mr. Hopkins, it does not make any difference whether a man is suffering from drought or from flooding of lands, so far as the relief administration is concerned. Mr. HOPKINS. That is right. Senator BYRNES. You say that you are looking at it solely from the relief standpoint. Mr. HOPKINS. That is right. Senator BYENES. I would like to hear you go on, if no other Senator has a question, to state what you intend doing then as a matter of relief. Senator MCKELLAR. Now, you say that there are 10,000,000 people in the drought area. Mr. HOPKINS. Yes, sir. Senator MCKELLAR. How many of those do you estimate need refe Mr. HOPKINS. I think 15 or 20 percent. Senster MCKELLAR. Fifteen or twenty percent? Mr. HOPKINS. Yes, sir. Senator McKELLAR. That would be a million, or a million five hundred thousand. Senator NYE. More recent information is to the effect that is increasing. Mr. HOPKINS. The figure is increasing, Senator, undoubtedly. Senator NYE. Senator McKellar, I want to make the record clear in view of your question, that the demands, the requirement, is increasing rather than decreasing on the basis of estimates they are making from day to day. Senator GLASS. The demand is going to continue to increase, as long as they can get money from the Federal Government. As long as there is any money left in the Federal Treasury the demand is going to continue to increase. Senator NYE. The drought area is spreading, and as it spreads, there will be increased emergency relief needed. Senator McKELLAR. Senator, let me ask you, because you come from one of the States in question of course, we cannot tell when these rains are going to fall, but they are falling out there now. I was born and reared on a farm and I worked on a farm, manual work, not theoretical, but manual work on the farm, and I know exactly how these droughts come. I have seen droughts in June, May or June, change entirely before the end of June, and we made abundant crops when it looked in June as if we would make no crops. Senator ADAMS. I think that the Senator does not know what a drought is. Senator NYE. I do not think that he does, either. I think that he should come out there and see a drought. This spring, the wind has blown the seed and blown the sod and blown the grass roots, and blown everything away, and it has dried up. The most bountiful rains new, at best, are going to afford only a limited forage crop. Senator MCKELLAR. Unquestionably they must be very much more distressing than they are in the community where I was born and reared. Serator NYI, I am sure. Senator, that you really never saw such a drought as exists this time in that section. Senator MCKELLAR. But, if you have abundant rains, you can make good crops in your area? I Senator NYE. No: we do not have any prospects for a crop. think that the estimates this morning are that the best that we can hope for is a 20- or 25-percent crop. Mr. DAVIS. I will put in the record a complete statement on the growth and drought situation. Senator MCKELLAR. I hope that you will; yes. Senator GLASS. I would not presume to question the accuracy of Mr. Hopkins or the Secretary of Agriculture as to their estimates. I know nothing about it and they ought to know all about it. That is not what I am going, but my question is directed to whether or not there are not already funds available for this purpose, aside from this appropriation? Senator BYRNES. Suppose you go on.. Senator ADAMS. Yes, Mr. Hopkins. Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. Hopkins, do you think that it is absolutely necessary to look to this, item 5, to have that? $50,000,000 for emergency acquisition of such marginal farms and assistance in reallocating destitute farm families. Mr. HOPKINS. Senator, you put that on a basis of being absolutely necessary. Perhaps the only thing that is absolutely necessary is to feed people and keep them from starving to death. Now, as a matter of fact, in those areas there are families on the relief roll that have been getting relief out there for a couple of years. They have been getting relief while living on these submarginal farms where they can never make a living. Now, this drought comes along and it licks them once and for all. There is nothing in the picture to indicate that they will ever get off of relief. There are lands in North Dakota, publicly owned, where the prospects of rains are very good, to which these families could be moved from their present lands, on to decent places, where the prospects of getting rains and becoming self-supporting are very good. The submarginal lands should never fall into the hands of another farmer. Farmer should never be permitted to buy those lands and no real-estate concern should be permitted to sell them as farm lands, because men cannot make a living on them. It seems to me that it is cheaper to really make an effort to rehabilitate those families, and there is ample prospect of it being done. It would not be forcible removal. It would mean going to these families one at a time, on the basis of the merits of the case. Much of this money for rehabilitation would be loaned to them and not given to them, but the land would have to be purchased. These lands then could become grazing lands, or whatnot. The I think it is important. We could continue to feed those people and in the long run we would probably spend more. In the itemization of this whole fund obviously these items are tentative. thought is that the fund would be used on the fronts that are most urgent and necessary. If the whole fund should not be necessary, it would not be expended. That does not mean that $50,000,000 will be spent for submarginal lands, or that $25,000,000 will be spent for purchase of seed in 1935. It might take $35,000,000 instead of $25,000,000. These figures are tentative and what we think now will be necessary. Senator DICKINSON. Will you care to make a suggestion to the committee as to how this fund could be divided if you were to divide it in emergency relief items on the one hand and a rehabilitation fund on the other hand? Mr. HOPKINS. Yes, I could. Senator DICKINSON. I would like to have those figures. Senator MCKELLAR. Is that No. 4? would be l keep th year Senator Mr. M met, as to of t Senator Mr. M Mr. HOPKINS. Yes, that is no. 4. On the other hand, I am frank to say I have no idea how these people are going to get feed for their cattle if some loan fund like this is not set up and I am perfectly willing to call that $100,000,000 as an emergency measure. Senator MCKELLAR. Mr. Hopkins, have you gone into the situationale to see whether it would be cheaper to feed those cattle, for instance, where they now are than to send them out? Senator DICKINSON. Wil you let me get at this situation first, Senator? Senator MCKELLAR beg your pardon. I thought that you had finished. Senator Mr. H wild be chase hi Senato Mr. HOPKINS. I think that possibly Mr. Davis could discuss that. Mr. H Mr. DAVIS. I think. Secator, I would prefer to discuss that later if I am permitted a a gran Senato Mr. HOPKINS. That is true of item no. 1. I think that item no.2k the $75.000.000 for livestock purchase in addition to the funds already Mr. H available under the Jones-Connally Act, is an emergency relief out th Senator MKELLAR. And that should be retained as it is? appropriation I do not know. Senator before he was leaving, and there was quite a fight in the the cr Senato are not Senat er ha Mr. HOPKINS Yes. Senator, I cannot distinguish any of these,ads, a unless you want to take the $25,000,000 for the purchase of seed, but, Mr. H where else are der going to purchase the seed for the 1935 plantings Senat Senator FES Mr. Hopkins, this is a fact, now, the history of it. The origina seed loan originated for North Dakota back in 1922 when Senator Gonna was in the Senate as a compliment to the House smine Senate about it, and there have been droughts ever since. It wasen up then by some States in the South, my own incrried, we have had loans for seed every year since. Admins has been lending money for seed loans. we must take that into consideration, that the Farm Credit Ser ICELLAR. And, doing a very excellent job, too, less Fought It started with this drought thought and I was just Sor RNES. It has developed into loans to all farmers, regardwonders wether you had not got in the $25,000,000 for 1935 that could be taken care of by the Farm Credit because they have plans in mind that might be of Senator, do you want to hear me on that? If you want to hear that discussed, the danger is that Sena Mr. Sene the Sen Sen MCKELLAR. Yes; I would like to hear you, Mr. Myers. Bess or adapted varieties of wheat may be milled or moved e region this fall and it is important to have that seed pur-M and remain in the area available for seed next year. It does emplate farm credit, as does this other item. Our job, I is to make loans to farmers. This sum of $25,000,000 |