It affects church groups such as I am representing today, we represent 41 churches in the Washington metropolitan area and the Baltimore, Md., area. It is a question of two churches coming together, Congregational Christian, and Evangelical Reform, forming the United Church of Christ.

Now, without this legislation, we would not be able to do what we are doing today. It has been agonizing in many respects. I do not think that I have ever undertaken anything which has been more difficult in actual patience, but we have had tremendous help from Mr. Sidney Spector and Dr. Leeds. These two men have consoled us and helped us when we felt that the situation was desperate.

I think, Mr. Chairman, the main difficulty is that you have a decentralized program, and you have a number of different regional offices. Some of these offices are excellent, and some of them are extremely trying.

We had a most disagreeable experience in our regional office. We found that it was almost impossible to break through the aura that surrounded this office, and I think that if I had not spent 212 years, myself, personally, in the Federal Government, I would have gone away from the regional office and said: "It is impossible to get a 202 loan."

Instead of that, I came back, counseled with people in Washington, we proceeded with it, and we broke the track record, because we got a loan processed in 1 year's time.

Now, this is practically unheard of. I do not think this could be done unless there was a good bit of technical know-how. I think that the average layman who went out to get a project approved under the 202 loan would have to get some technical help.

In the first place, the application is this thick [indicating], and it is a very, very, very difficult situation to deal with. But it is rewarding. Senator WILLIAMS. You say "this thick." That does not, of course, appear in the record. You are indicating several inches there?

Mr. DORMAN. I think it would weigh about 7 pounds, the long form which has just come out.

The chairman of our board is a remarkable man. He is an attorney, an accomplished person, and an application like this just excites him. He enjoys filling them out. To me it is terrifying. But to this man it is a challenge. And he was delighted with that long form. This I think would probably not be prevalent, generally speaking.

We are very fortunate, in that we are building our unit right in the heart of Silver Spring, Md. This home will consist of 109 efficiencies and 15 1-bedroom units. And, Mr. Chairman, half of the applications that we are getting now, of course-people have to be 62 or over-are from married couples, who are tired of the plumber and the roofer and the rest of it, and they want to come and live in a project such as ours, where the emphasis will be on independent living, entirely on independent living, but the arm of our church will be around them in case they need help.

Senator WILLIAMS. What size loan?

Mr. DORMAN. $1,540,000 total loan, construction costs-well, we are bid, so I can tell you what our construction costs will be, which are $1,138,035.

Senator WILLIAMS. Have you projected the rental?

Mr. DORMAN. Yes, we have to project the rental before the application is processed, because the budget must be drawn up. This is one of the things that you go through. This, of course, as you know, is an extremely high rental area that we are building in.

We figure that we will be able to rent an efficiency, air conditioned, with a kitchen in it, and all utilities, for approximately $92 a month. The one-bedroom apartments will be $115 a month.

This is a projected budget. In this area, the rents would be, I expect, approximately 40 percent higher than this.

There will be central dining for 50 people at one time, too, incorporated in this project.

Senator WILLIAMS. What is the cost of your money, under the law? Mr. DORMAN. Three and one-half percent at the present time, over a 50-year period, which would give a charitable organization, or a good nonprofit sponsor, an edge.

Well, there are arguments about this, but I set a figure. An edge of about $18 a month rent, as opposed to conventional financing. And this is a tremendous assist.

We represent a middle-income group, middle- to lower-income group, who will profit by this, of course, and anybody else who wishes to come in, as the 202 projects, as you know, are open-end projects. We feel that there are just one or two things that I would like to stress, as a suggestion toward you, in legislation.

We are taking in approximately 139 people, Senator. We feel that we have an obligation to those people in the future regarding health. Now, we hope that we are going to keep them so happy that they just live out their lives and die a natural death, but there is a possibility that they will become incapacitated. We will not be able, then, to care for them, when they do. Our church group, this corporation, would like to build a nursing home, would like to build it soon, but there is absolutely no purpose in our building a nursing home in which we have to charge $325 to $800 or $900 a month, as is the custom in nursing homes throughout this area.

In other words, the area is reaching a saturation point regarding high-priced nursing homes. Our church group would like to build a nursing home in which we would have the benefit of this advantageous financing, so that we could take care of the people who get sick at a lower rate. Then the world would beat a path to your door. And I have a suggestion, here, of amending section 232, adding the words "and private nonprofit."

Senator WILLIAMS. I want to get the full import of what you are saying, here. What is the limitation now, that you are expanding? Mr. DORMAN. On nursing homes?

Senator WILLIAMS. Yes.

Mr. DORMAN. Our difficulty is now that there is no provision for nonprofit in nursing homes. In other words, it is the same as though it were proprietary. And we feel that this is an obligation, a Christian obligation, which we have, to our guests in this home.

Now, there is another limitation under section 202, Senator, which says that we cannot take anybody in as a resident if they have an income of $4,000 a year or more. We are not subject to this, because we filed our application before this went through.

Personally, I feel, and my board feels, that this is segregating people according to income. We feel that community facilities will go ahead

with sponsors who do not have large rich groups, but I see no sense in discriminating against somebody in a facility such as this, because they happen to have an income of $4,000 a year.

This is just putting people into brackets according to their income and I think that the person who has an income of $4,000 a year might very well profit by associating with some people who have less income, and you get a better cross section of your country.

And I do not think that this is a very sensible inclusion in this law, After all, if your screening is done properly, you are not going to accept as sponsors people who are building society houses for the rich, and that sort of thing, but $4,000 a year is not a great deal of money, any more, and I think that this is a mistake.

I would second Mr. Edelman's suggestions on some research being done in finding out just exactly what senior citizens want in housing. You know, they will not tell you. You go out and ask them, and they will not tell you.

I have been in this field for 9 years, and they are always suspicious when you ask them questions, if they are sitting in their home. But I would suggest that some grants be established for the housing authorities to go in and talk to the elderly and find out from the elderly whether they like these facilities, and what suggestions they make.

They will tell you after they have gone into these facilities, and have been exposed to them. But you can go and interview people over 62 until you are blue in the face, when they have not been subjected to surrounding, and they feel that it is none of your business, particularly, and they will not give you much information.

But some sensible research in this line, under the auspices of the Housing Administration, which is vitally interested in this-some grant money would be very acceptable, I think.

Also trained personnel is in a great shortage. I am the chairman of the administrators and superintendents of home for the elderly in the metropolitan area. There are 22 of us at the present time. It is an association. And we all realize that there are very, very few people who are qualified in any way to run and see to it that these organizations are properly run.

It is a new field. It is a brandnew field. In our unit in Silver Spring-actually, there is no unit like this anywhere around. This is a brandnew conception. And we need trained personnel. Some grant money would be extremely to the point.

Senator WILLIAMS. You have 22 members of your association? Mr. DORMAN. Of our association. It has just been newly formed, and this constitutes the newly built homes in our area and some that have been here for many years.

Senator WILLIAMS. Just this area?

Mr. DORMAN. Just the metropolitan area of Washington, yes. Senator WILLIAMS. I see.

Mr. DORMAN. And we also have one more point which I would like to stress, and that is that we are going to have people, guests, in this home, who will come in saying, "We have an income of $70 a month. Where are we going to get the rest of the money?"

Well, I am going to go and beat my churches on the head to try and get that money up, but I am not sure that I can. If some legislation could be written that would be a way of reducing the cost of

amortization of our loan, allowing worthy, sensible people who need he sort of atmosphere which our home is going to provide, God willing, then I think that this would be a tremendous help.

I mean I am going to feel very badly, as an administrator, if somebody comes to me, and they do not have the income, and they should be in our home.

Senator WILLIAMS. What would you think of rent supplementation in this areas, as we have it in other areas?

Mr. DORMAN. I think it would be a fine thing. Anything which would achieve this purpose of allowing the people to do this.

Senator WILLIAMS. It might add another pound to that application, however.

Mr. DORMAN. It might. But the Government does tend to seem to complicate matters rather than simplify matters. I guess this is an inevitable process. I am just calling it to your attention; I am not complaining.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, with your president so eager to deal with pounds of applications, you will probably be the first to qualify, here. Mr. DORMAN. I thank you very much for the opportunity of appearing before you. I consider it a great privilege.

Senator WILLIAMS. I am glad to hear that this program is potentially on its way to being so helpful and useful to your members.

Mr. DORMAN. It is a tremendous assist. And I think that many more churches-I am speaking for churches at the moment-would avail themselves of this, if they did not have the initial discouragement of hitting somebody in a regional office, possibly, who never heard of the program. And this has happened.

Senator WILLIAMS. I am particularly encouraged, because I remember the day that the money was appropriated for this program. I happened to offer the amendment that raised the appropriation bill from $5 million to the authorized $50 million. And we had a rather tense but exciting half hour of debate, and we got the $50 million. The conference pared it a bit.

But the thought then was, "Well, this is new. Let us demonstrate it with a pilot project or two. Let us experiment."

It seems to me that it was so fundamental that we knew enough to get a program underway, and not waste years, in experimenting with what should be relatively simple as a concept.

Mr. DORMAN. This project will be a pilot project, incidentally, for the Federal Government in this area, and actually, it is putting the care of the aged where it belongs, with nonprofit, responsible groups, and takes the burden off of the State and Federal Government and so forth, and puts it exactly where it should be.

If the churches are going to be of any use, they have to take an active part in programs like this, and my group is delighted to be able to do so.

Senator WILLIAMS. If anybody tries to excise this from the bill when we go to the floor of the Senate, I will be quoting you at length. Thank you very much.

Mr. DORMAN. Thank you very much, sir.

Senator WILLIAMS. Mr. Richard Schifter, attorney, representing the Oglala Sioux Tribe.

You are a fortunate man, Mr. Schifter. There is a lot of wisdom in the philosophy of the Sioux Indian.

STATEMENT OF RICHARD SCHIFTER, ATTORNEY, REPRESENTING THE OGLALA SIOUX TRIBE AND OGLALA SIOUX HOUSING AUTHORITY OF PINE RIDGE, S. DAK., THE PUEBLO OF LAGUNA AND THE LAGUNA HOUSING AUTHORITY OF LAGUNA, N. MEX., AND THE NAVAJO HOUSING AUTHORITY OF WINDOW ROCK, ARIZ.

Mr. SCHIFTER. That is very true, Senator.

Senator WILLIAMS. Have you ever heard the expression—well, it is more than an expression, but one of the principles they live by. "Before you are harshly critical of any man, walk 2 miles in his moccasins." Have you ever heard that?

Mr. SCHIFTER. Yes, I have. I think Senator Humphrey has a sign to that effect in his office, too.

Senator WILLIAMS. Is that right? Well, I do not know if he walks 2 miles in everybody's moccasins-no, I should not. That is not charitable. He walks more than 2 miles.

Mr. SCHIFTER. Mr. Chairman, my name is Richard Schifter, and I am an attorney with offices at 1700 K Street, NW., Washington, D.C. I am here to testify on behalf of the Oglala Sioux Tribe and the Oglala Sioux Housing Authority of Pine Ridge, S. Dak., the Pueblo of Laguna and the Laguna Housing Authority of Laguna, N. Mex., and the Navajo Housing Authority of Window Rock, Ariz.

These organizations have authorized me to testify in support of those features of S. 2468 which further expand the program of housing for low-income families.

Public housing on Indian reservations is a relatively new concept. It was only as recently as 1961, 24 years after enactment of the statute which launched the federally assisted public housing programs, that it was discovered that Indians, too, may benefit from this program.

As I was told by some officials of the Public Housing Administration, it had been assumed that the Bureau of Indian Affairs took care of housing needs on Indian reservations. Indian Bureau officials in turn, had, prior to 1961, no idea of the possibilities under the public housing program and had no funds of their own to provide housing assistance to Indian people. This complete absence of programs of Federal public housing assistance resulted in the continuation of the appalling housing conditions in the Indian country.

Indian reservations probably constitute the worst rural slums in the United States. On the reservation of the Oglala Sioux TribeSenator WILLIAMS. Where is it, by the way? Maybe you said, but I did not hear. Where is this?

Mr. SCHIFTER (continuing). Pine Ridge, S. Dak.-you have been there, Senator-which frequently experiences subzero weather in the winter, some people still live in tents, others in "houses" built of twigs or of cardboard. When the Oglala Sioux Tribe established the first Indian Housing Authority in 1961, and a survey was made by the Public Housing Administration of housing conditions on the reservation, it was established that at least 95 percent of the reservation families live in substandard dwellings.

Construction on the first Indian public housing project, at Pine Ridge, S. Dak., was begun in 1962. Fifty-one homes were built and were occupied early in 1963.