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city, where the house is attached to the land, and goes together on one mortgage.

When you get into the rural areas you have this whole farm, perhaps, under a mortgage, and it is very difficult to get that type of financing. It is a peculiar type of financing, and I think it is going to take Government help and Government planning to make possible at least some help and some hope that these people on the farms can get some kind of decent housing.

Another thing which I think is very important is that the farmers have had a good income in many, many sections of the country. But they have also had to buy an awful lot of machinery which has worn out through these 5 or 6 years of record-breaking farm production-tractors, harvesters, plows, and all the other things that the farmer needs. And he has had to extend his credit in order to get modern machinery to grow crops. And if he has extended for those items-and the price has not been any too high-he is going to have a little difficulty in building up his house. A good many farmers are going to try to build up their equipment first, and most of them are building barns before building houses. I think it depends altogether on the part of the country you are looking at.

I know the farm homes in the district of the gentlemen from Massachusetts are literally garden spots. Unfortunately, that is not true throughout the South.

Mr. NICHOLSON. You would not hire an architect to build a 4- or 5room house, would you?

Mr. MONRONEY. I certainly would not. I think I would have some pretty good plans to choose from.

Mr. NICHOLSON. That is what this does.

Mr. COLE. I think it does, too, and that is what the witness says. Mr. MONRONEY. Oh, no.

Mr. NICHOLSON. I just wanted to ask one more question.

The Department assisted cranberry bogs in my district-some people who had an investment of a half million dollars-and paid them for sanding their bogs. That is about the same as an ordinary farmer who is raising produce from the land through putting manure on his acreage.

If they are going to be assisted in building houses the way they were assisted and subsidized for doing something that they had to do anyway, and which the people did not want-and the cranberry growers did not want themselves, except that they sent them checks-and when somebody gets something for nothing, he goes to the bank and puts it in his account-it looks to me as though this might be about the same type of proposition.

If you are going to help farmers, and, by doing so, raise the price of every commodity they sell in order to give them flush toilets, bathrooms, and so forth and so on-according to what you say here I do not know where we are going.

Is that not so? Will that not drive up the prices of every farm product?

Mr. BRANNAN. I do not think so.

Mr. NICHOLSON. Where are they going to get the money with which to get all these improvements, then?

Mr. BRANNAN. Out of a sounder economic operation on their part. I do not know about

Mr. NICHOLSON. Well, are they going to raise more products if they have a 15-room house instead of a 6-room house?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, sir.

Mr. NICHOLSON. That house is not producing anything except living quarters for the people who live there.

Mr. BRANNAN. That is right.

Mr. NICHOLSON. And you would not have asked for it if the urban people had not come in and asked for it.

Mr. BRANNAN. Oh, yes; we would.

Mr. NICHOLSON. Do you not think our farmhouses are in better condition today than they were 50 years ago or 60 years ago?

Mr. BRANNAN. Of course, that is a matter for the statistician. I do not know. But no matter what comparisons are made with times gone by, there still is a lot of bad rural housing in these United States, about which, we think, the committees of Congress want to do something.

Mr. NICHOLSON. Well, of course, you know we had the poor with us since the beginning of history. We have always had them. We have had slum areas also, and always will have them. We have had people who will not work and we always will have them.

Mr. BRANNAN. And you always have people who want to do something about those conditions, too.

Mr. NICHOLSON. Oh, certainly; it is a good thing to have.

Mr. MONRONEY. You would not say, Mr. Nicholson, that everybody who lives in a slum or in an unsanitary or insufficient farmhouse is simply a person who does not want to work, would you?

Mr. NICHOLSON. I will say this: That, in the history of Plymouth County, the great great grandchildren of the people who were running the town in 1620 still own the town and they have lived on the outskirts of the village, and they are still living there. That is a problem that I do not know how to overcome. But there are millions of boys who were born in those slums who have made something out of themselves and are building their own houses now. We cannot do anything for people who cannot and who do not want to do anything for themselves. Mr. MULTER. It is those fellows who make something out of themselves whom we want to help. We want to give them the opportunity to continue to do it.

Mr. NICHOLSON. I did not have any bathtubs in my house until I was of age, and I got along pretty good and was just as clean as the rest of kids, and went to high school, too.

Mr. COLE. Mr. Chairman, I have just one question.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cole.

Mr. COLE. My question relates to page 9 in your statement. I am wondering if this is not a new thing in housing, or improvements in housing, when you say [reading]:

It is anticipated that these minimum improvements could be achieved with the use of not to exceed $1,000 per family unit, not over $500 of which would be a grant or a contribution.

Where, in any of our Government programs, have we given $500 to anybody to improve a house?

Mr. BRANNAN. In many of the urban housing projects

Mr. COLE. I am talking about the Federal Government.

Mr. BRANNAN. In many of the urban housing projects, built under the legislation to which this is related and to which it is partially an

amendment, has a subsidy per unit, per room, or per cubic foot or some other basis, been granted, and it is reflected openly and clearly and everybody understands it, that there is a subsidy per unit of housing that we built for people in the cities.

Mr. COLE. Where are we doing that?

Mr. BRANNAN. In every public housing project.

Mr. COLE. What public housing projects do we have now that are permanent?

Mr. MULTER. The one in New York that Mr. Gwinn referred to yesterday.

Mr. BRANNAN. Well, what does "permanent" mean?

Mr. COLE. Nontemporary, not a war housing project.

Mr. BRANNAN. I do not know from what part of the country you come from, but we have beautiful housing projects in the city of Denver that are permanent.

Mr. COLE. Under what act?

Mr. BRANNAN. The United States Public Housing Act.

Mr. COLE. Just a moment. I want to know this: This, of course is a straight out-and-out grant or contribution to an individual of $500? Mr. BRANNAN. That is right-in the interest of public welfare. Mr. COLE. Just a moment. In order that he might improve his own house?

Mr. BRANNAN. That is right.

Mr. COLE. Where, in any law, have we done that prior to this? Do not talk to me about subsidies. I understand about subsidies. But where have we ever granted any individual $500 to improve his individual house-giving it to him?

Mr. BRANNAN. I say you have done it everywhere where you have built the so-called public housing.

Mr. COLE. I am not talking about public housing. I am talking about individual housing.

Mr. BRANNAN. The only difference between that

Mr. COLE. Just a moment, please, if you do not mind.

I do not mean to be abrupt, but the question is simple: Have we ever done it before?

Mr. BRANNAN. The answer is "Yes," and the explanation of the answer is that in those cases it is a little less direct, a little less specific in terms of having been delivered in a lump sum. But in the dwellings occupied by many people in this country there is money invested over and above what rental that individual can pay. In other words, the cost of the project will not ultimately be paid back in the form of rents and income. That is my understanding. Therefore, the spread between the amount of money an occupant pays in rent and the amount of money it cost to build the unit-in other words, the amount of money that he will pay to retire the cost of the unit-is commonly referred to as a subsidy.

Now, it is put in month by month, in that case. In this case it is forthrightly put right up on top of the record. I am not saying that in the other case it is not just as forthright. But in both cases it is subsidy, and the answer to the question is clearly "Yes."

Mr. COLE. All right. Carrying that out to its logical conclusion, housing, of course, is important to the security and health of the Nation.

Mr. BRANNAN. That is right.
Mr. COLE. So is food.
Mr. BRANNAN. That is right.
Mr. COLE. So is clothing.

Mr. BRANNAN. That is right.

Mr. COLE. If that is true, why should we not further consider a bill which will authorize us to give a person with a low income, with inadequate food, with inadequate clothing, $500 a year? We have a basic concept here to consider. You may not have, but we in Congress certainly do.

Mr. BRANNAN. Well, all I can say is that that is one of the questions that Congress will decide.

Mr. HULL. May I ask a question right there?

As a matter of fact, these food subsidies granted during the war were put on for the benefit of the city consumer, in order to keep the farmers' prices down, were they not? It is a subsidy just the same as though given to a man buying groceries in the cities. Is there any difference between a citizen living in a city of a million inhabitants and a man on the farm, as far as his citizenship is concerned?

Mr. BRANNAN. None whatsover.

Mr. HULL. Is the farmer still in the picture, or is he out of it?
Mr. BRANNAN. We are doing our best to keep him in it.

Mr. HULL. But after the election probably nobody will care whether he stays in it or not.

Mr. MULTER. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Multer.

Mr. MULTER. Mr. Brannan, this title we are talking about here relating to farmers, title VII, was stricken out of the bill by the Senate committee before the bill went to the Senate floor, and on the floor of the Senate it was reinstated; is that right?

Mr. BRANNAN. That is my recollection.

Mr. MULTER. You are familiar, are you not, with the hearings which were conducted by the Joint Housing Committee as a result of which that committee recommended housing research in this bill?

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes.

Mr. MULTER. What you are trying to do, in part, here, in title VII, is to give the same facilities, technical research and assistance, to the farmers?

Mr. BRANNAN. For rural areas; yes, sir.

Mr. RILEY. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Riley.

Mr. RILEY. Mr. Brannan, what are the present facilities for financing farm housing?

Mr. BRANNAN. From the Department of Agriculture?

Mr. RILEY. Yes.

Mr. BRANNAN. Practically none, with the exception of this: There is going forward some research on farm home plans, and the benefits of that research are made available through the Extension Service to farmers of the country. There are some plans of kitchens adaptable to farm homes, general home plans, and through the county agents they are available to farmers. And through the county agents, too, a minimum of technical assistance that they can give is also available.

Mr. RILEY. No, I am interested in the present facilities for financing farm home building or farm home repairs.

Mr. BRANNAN. Under the Farm Credit Administration programs, under certain circumstances, money can be borrowed for doing repairs to farm housing. It is the usual, conventional type of operation. If the value of the land to be improved or the financial condition of the borrower are such as to warrant the loan, the loan is made for that purpose. There are limitations, of course, on the amounts.

Mr. RILEY. Is that secured by a mortgage?

Mr. BRANNAN. It is secured, in all cases, by a mortgage, and, I think, in all cases by a first mortgage.

Mr. RILEY. Suppose you wanted to add a bathroom or put a new roof on your farm house. Are there any facilities for short-term credit, installment credit, such as in title I of the National Housing Act applying to city homes?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, there really is not, except the credit available from private sources and the credit available through the Federal Land banks. In some cases the low-income group can get some help, too, on credit terms, if

Mr. RILEY. Are there any insured mortgages for farm home construction or repair?

Mr. BRANNAN. Under the most recent legislation for the Farmers Home Administration there are some insurance provisions. I am not quite certain, but I do not think there have been very many insured loans to date.

Mr. RILEY. That is information I would like to have. I do not know whether there has been any use of that provision as yet. I wondered whether or not you had the authority.

Mr. BRANNAN. I am sure the authority is still in the act, sir.
Mr. RILEY. The Farmers Home Administration Act?

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROWN. Will you yield, Mr. Riley?

Mr. RILEY. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. Would you mind giving the record of the tenant farmers who were aided under the Bankhead-Jones Act?

Mr. BRANNAN. Mr. Brown, I apologize. I missed the first part of your question.

Mr. BROWN. Would you mind giving us the record of the tenant farmers who were aided under the Bankhead-Jones Act? In my section of the country they have all made good, and many have repaid their loans before maturity.

Mr. BRANNAN. We will certainly supply that by State or in any fashion the committee would like to have it.

I can say this, though, in general terms: That the Bankhead-Jones loans, over the whole country, are probably paid in advance, on the average, and the number of delinquencies is not more than 2 or 3 or 4 percent, if that high.

Mr. BROWN. That was my understanding. Thank you.

Mr. BRANNAN. It has been an extremely successful program.

Mr. RILEY. Mr. Brannan, coming back to the Farmers Home Administration on the farms that you finance for purchase you repair the buildings and put them in condition before they are turned over to the purchaser and, as a rule, see that they are in good condition when you finance them?

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