TABLE 11.-1987 and subsequent years emergency crop and feed loans: Number and approved amount of loans made, collected, adjusted under Public Law 518, and balance outstanding Dec. 31, 1947

TABLE 12.-1934-35 drought relief loans: Number and approved amount of loans made, collected, and adjusted under Public Law 518 and balance outstanding Dec. 31, 1947

Mr. NICHOLSON. I would like to know, when you submit that, whether you are just doing it for housing and not for the other hundred and one things the farm family is subsidized for. I have driven over New England a great deal, and it seems to me that the farm houses are in better condition than a great many houses in the urban area. I

have not seen too many farmhouses that are run down and dilapidated in my part of the country. For instance, could you tell me, in Massachusetts, how many of these farmers you are loaning money to for building houses, repairing houses, putting in water supply, and so forth? I would be pleased to have that information.

Mr. BRANNAN. We will supply those figures, sir.

The information referred to is as follows:)

In Massachusetts 65 tenant purchase loans have been made. Funds were included in six of them for the construction of new low-cost farm dwellings, and in the remainder funds were provided for the repair of existing houses.

Mr. TALLE. Mr. Nicholson, will you yield?

Mr. NICHOLSON. Yes.

Mr. TALLE. Perhaps, Mr. Brannan; you could furnish the information I asked for by States. Would that serve your purposes, Mr. Nicholson?

Mr. NICHOLSON. Well, I am rather at sea. Every farmer in my district has a pretty decent house on his farm. Of course, if you are going to take into consideration that a farmer is a man who has 3 acres of land, then, we might as well throw our hands up.

Mr. BRANNAN. That is not our definition. That is not the definition in the bill, I mean, sir. I read the definition earlier. Would you like to hear it again?

Mr. NICHOLSON. Yes; I would like to know what the definition of a farmer is.

Mr. BRANNAN. For the purpose of this title?

Mr. NICHOLSON. For the purpose of building him a house, or loaning him money on a house that he is going to build.

Mr. BRANNAN. It is section 701 (b). [Reading:]

For the purpose of this title and the acts amended hereby the term "farm” shall mean a parcel or parcels of land operated as a single unit, which is used for the production of one or more agricultural commodities, and which customarily produces such commodities for sale and for home use of a gross annual value of not more than $400.

I think that when you were referring to 3 acres, you were probably referring to the Census definition. We did not adopt the Census definition of a farm, for the purposes of this act.

Mr. NICHOLSON. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BUFFETT. Mr. Brannan, did your department prepare this title in the bill?

Mr. BRANNAN. We did considerable work on it, sir.

Mr. BUFFETT. Who brought it to you? Or did you just develop it down there yourselves?

Mr. BRANNAN. I think we developed it over the period of the last 2 or 3 years, working with members of the Senate committees and other folks interested in rural housing.

Mr. BUFFETT. Did anybody on this committee help you?

Mr. BRANNAN. I do not remember that they did.

Mr. BUFFETT. I am asking if you consulted any member on this committee in that connection.

Mr. BRANNAN. I haven't, sir. But I am not sure but what members of this committee have been consulted. There have been some discussions with Mr. Hays, if I remember correctly, in the last few days about it.

Mr. KILBURN. Did you consult Dr. Smith?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, sir.

Mr. BUFFETT. Mr. Brannan, are you familiar with the entire bill? Mr. BRANNAN. I would like to say that we have made reasonable efforts to familiarize ourselves with the bill, to the extent to which at least we might be of assistance in integrating the rural sections of the bill.

Mr. BUFFETT. Would you be willing to state your stand on the entire bill, and the effects of one section on another, and its complete impact?

Mr. BRANNAN. I would rather you would get that type of information from those who worked closer to the other sections than we have. Mr. BUFFETT. You would rather not appear here as an expert on those sections?

Mr. BRANNAN. I would rather not, sir.

Mr. BUFFETT. Have you studied public housing ventures in rural areas in other lands?

Mr. BRANNAN. Outside the United States, you mean?

Mr. BUFFETT. Yes.

Mr. BRANNAN. No, sir.

Mr. BUFFETT. You are not familiar at all with what Russia has done in this very field, then, I take it.

Mr. BRANNAN. No, sir.

Mr. BUFFETT. I see on page 8 of your statement, you say this [reading]:

The Department does not intend to abandon those farmers

those are apparently group IV farmers

but, on the contrary, considers them to be a segment of the farm population for which it has a special responsibility.

I am interested in knowing what this special responsibility is and who assigned it to the department. Can you tell us that?

Mr. BRANNAN. I think the Department, under the Bankhead-Jones Farm-Tenant Act, under some of its price-support legislation, under various acts of Congress, have responsibility for helping farmers establish themselves on as sound an economic basis as possible, and those who are not on that kind of a basis are, therefore, in need of special assistance to get to that kind of a basis. That is the kind of special responsibility we have, and any responsibilities exercised by the Department or undertaken by the Department, of course, go back to some basic enactment of the Congress and the implementation of that enactment by apporpriations from time to time.

Mr. BUFFETT. Do you think that somewhere there is a statute which specifically assigns to the Department of Agriculture responsibility for the welfare of the individual farmer?

Mr. BRANNAN. I think all of the acts under which the Department of Agriculture operates are intended to make it possible for the Department of Agriculture to help farmers-all farmers, and those that are in need most, of course, require the greatest assistance.

Mr. BUFFETT. And that responsibility extends down to the point where you should determine whether they need hot and cold running water, and the number of rooms per person in a house, and so forth?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, not at all. There is nothing in this statement, and certainly nothing in the philosophy of the Department, which says we are going to determine what they need. But we are going to, to

Is the Government going to supply mechanics, carpenters, and bricklayers to me under this program?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, sir. But you would have the same trouble if you were in the city, too, would you not? And you would have the same trouble whether you were trying to build a home or a factory or an apartment house or a department store or anything else.

Mr. BUFFETT. How can the Department of Agriculture add to the solution of that problem if the problem is a problem of getting mechanics and materials?

Mr. BRANNAN. Because that is not the only part of the problem. There are a great many farmers in this country who do not have the adequate credit, to start with, to even go looking for the employees and for the materials. That is a group of people we are trying to help with this bill.

Mr. BUFFETT. Have the farmers ever had more credit facilities available to them than they have now, and at lower rates?

Mr. BRANNAN. Well, I would say probably not. But that does not mean that every farmer still has access to credit. There are many, many farmers in this country who still do not have access to good credit because they do not have the resources upon which to establish a security base.

Mr. BUFFETT. Do you think that a person who does not have any of the normal accouterments of good credit should have credit, regardless?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, sir. But I think we should try to help them get the basic elements of good security for adequate credit. And that is the reason why we put in this bill that as and when they get a good base, which private credit will recognize, that we will require them to go over to private credit.

Mr. BUFFETT. Well, as a reverse, you are contending that private credit is not fulfilling the demand for farm credit; is that right?

Mr. BRANNAN. The word "demand," in terms of walking into a bank and asking for the money, private credit, of course, is available. Demand in terms of a potential demand for improving their houses if they had the money to do it with is another thing, and of course there is no credit to aid that kind of people.

Mr. BUFFETT. Do you mean that if I am a farmer, and I am operating a farm and doing a good job, that I cannot go into a bank and borrow money to put a bathroom in my house?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, sir; I did not say that.

Mr. BUFFETT. What did you say, then?

Mr. BRANNAN. I am saying to you that if you had 40 acres of rundown land, on which you could not make a living for you and your family, but that there was available to you another 40 acres, or some additional acreage, or that you could improve the present 40 acres in such a way that it would be adequate to produce an income to support you and your family and maintain a decent home, that there are no credit facilities available, in many cases, for that kind of people to get that additional production base except through Farmers Home Administration and some of the other agencies which are now in existence in the Department.

Mr. BUFFETT. They are already in existence, however.