might be. This is particularly true because the widespread feeding, vocational training, self-help, and social service programs carried on in so many countries abroad by the American agencies are to great extent originated, planned, and controlled from the United States. Availability of such excess property-that is, the excess property held within the United States would be closely and productively integrated with existing programs so as to achieve maximum overall benefits in the concerned oversea areas of acute human need.

Thank you, sir.

Senator GRUENING. Thank you very much, Mr. Blackford.

Would you think, that in view of your very valid point that conditions should be flexible and should be varied from one country to the other, that the judgment as to how they should be varied might not well be left to the American Ambassador to each of these countries? Mr. BLACKFORD. Yes, sir; or his representatives; yes, sir.

Senator GRUENING. Well, he would be in a position perhaps to judge as well as anyone what the needs are and how this would be applied. Mr. BLACKFORD. I only have the fear, Senator Gruening, that we would get an inflexible thing, interpretation, in the execution. And some little thing in the law might possibly be written in.

Senator GRUENING. Well, that would be an administrative matter. I do not think there is any problem about adding a little language along the lines which you suggest to indicate that whatever the regulations are, they should be flexible and varying, depending on local conditions.

Mr. BLACKFORD. Yes, sir.

We have in many of our programs run up against this thing, which is quite understandable, because any head of a department is forced to carry out the interpretation of the law as it is set. And these things have in the past led to many difficult situations.

Senator GRUENING. Is your organization financed by voluntary contributions?

Mr. BLACKFORD. Yes, sir. It is the Overseas Relief Agency of the Protestant churches, entirely voluntarily financed.

Senator GRUENING. Can you give me any approximate idea of how much you spend annually in this field?

Mr. BLACKFORD. The Church World Service budget is not a criterion. It runs about $7 or $8 million. The Protestant organizations: concerned raise about $11 or $12 million in one effort alone. I think that the total expenditures probably run well in excess of $50 million. a year.

Senator GRUENING. Well, I was thinking of this

Mr. BLACKFORD. This covers all fields.

Senator GRUENING. This agency in particular, which is apparently a unified service of all the churches involved?

Mr. BLACKFORD. Yes, sir. It is a cooperative agency.

Senator GRUENING. And you raise about $8 million?

Mr. BLACKFORD. In what is called the one great hour of sharing efforts and comparable efforts of the Protestant churches concerned there is raised about $12 million-$11.5 million.

Senator GRUENING. Is this all destined for expenditure abroad?
Mr. BLACKFORD. This is all for oversea relief; yes, sir.

Senator GRUENING. There is no corresponding fund or organization for relief where it may be needed in the 50 States?

Mr. BLACKFORD. Well, ours is oversea relief. That portion of the work falls within the scope of what is known as home missions. Senator GRUENING. In other words, there is another agency? Mr. BLACKFORD. Oh, yes.

Senator GRUENING. Which takes care of our domestic relief?

Mr. BLACKFORD. Yes. American Indians, migrant families, and so forth; yes, sir.

Senator GRUENING. Have you any idea of how much money is available?

Mr. BLACKFORD. I do not know. But it is a very large amount of

money.

Senator GRUENING. You do not know whether it approximately equals the amount that is raised for expenditure overseas?

Mr. BLACKFORD. I cannot tell you.

Senator GRUENING. Would it not be possible to get that figure for the record?

Mr. BLACKFORD. Yes, I think so.

Senator GRUENING. I would appreciate it if you would send that to the committee.

Mr. BLACKFORD. I will be happy to send it to you.
Senator GRUENING. Thank you very much.

Mr. BLACKFORD. Thank you, sir.

(The material referred to follows:)

Hon. ERNEST GRUENING,

JUNE 3, 1960.

Chairman, Donable Property Subcommittee, Senate Committee on Government Operations, The Capitol, Washington, D.C.

MY DEAR SENATOR GRUENING: Following the opportunity you so generously gave me to testify on behalf of Church World Service before the Donable Property Subcommittee last Wednesday you asked if I could give to you an estimate of contributions by Protestant churches in America for assistance to needy persons in America.

You sought, I believe, to arrive at an approximate comparison of the amounts spent by Protestant churches for oversea assistance as against the amounts used for international assistance.

In attempting to get these facts for you, some interesting figures have evolved. In 1958, about 50 church bodies (Protestant) gave for all benevolences $473,911,895.

Of this in cash, some $10-$12 million was for direct oversea relief and rehabilitation, including refugee assistance, resettlement, etc.

A probable additional $20-$25 million was expended through foreign missions activities for various types of assistance quite definitely differentiated from "missionary" activities as popularly interpreted.

Combining the $11 million in cash contributed for direct oversea relief work, the above $20-$25 million for related activity and other work carried on in the same and similar categories, the oversea expenditures could reasonably approximate, as I suggested in answer to your questions, an easy $40 million. For internal assistance, a crude estimate but as reasonably reliable as is possible of contributions for social welfare, hospitals, homes for aged, homes for children and other child welfare (these activities including work among the migrants, among Indians and other underprivileged groups and areas in America) would be $40-$50 million.

These totals do not include benevolences for all Protestant bodies, which total something over 200 in all. The reports of the 50 (approximately) quoted above from which the above figures are taken, however, would be appreciably higher but not mathematically so because the extra 150 are, in most cases, splinter groups with small constituencies and resources.

May I thank you and your committee for your courtesy in allowing us to testify before you Wednesday and to thank you personally for your interest in our work.

Sincerely yours,

G. E. BLACKFORD.

Senator GRUENING. Mr. Kinney, do you want to testify?
Mr. KINNEY. Yes, sir.

STATEMENT OF EDWARD M. KINNEY, CATHOLIC RELIEF SERVICES, NATIONAL CATHOLIC WELFARE CONFERENCE, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Mr. KINNEY. Mr. Chairman, my name is Edward M. Kinney. I am here today representing Catholic Relief Services-National Čatholic Welfare Conference, the official oversea relief agency of the Catholic Church in America.

We are delighted to speak in support of the bills sponsored by Senator Humphrey and Senators Hart and Bartlett aimed at the amending of the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 to enable the donation of U.S. Government surplus property for the purposes of education and public health in foreign countries. We are confident that the laudable purposes of these bills will translate themselves, in time, into increased good will for the people of America.

In this connection, we have noted that in the amendment introduced by Senators Hart and Bartlett there exists the requirement that preference be given to organizations directly or indirectly founded, sponsored, or supported by the American people.

It has been our belief for some time that our Government's huge reserves of usable surplus in storage at major disposal depots, both here and abroad, could well be used for purposes of self-help, education, or health project and this objective might well be best achieved through utilizing as channels for such donations America's voluntary oversea relief agencies registered with and approved by the Advisory Committee on Voluntary Foreign Aid of the International Cooperation Administration.

The voluntary oversea relief agencies have already been and continue to be of substantial assistance in the distribution of America's food surplus to the needy overseas. Use of these existing channels for the disposal of surplus materiel would serve to bulwark these vast feeding programs and to supplement them with the type and kind of materiel and equipment which could serve as the basis for the type of community projects which could help to hasten the day when millions of our fellowmen overseas will be able to find gainful employment and enter the commercial markets as consumers.

As Senator Hart pointed out in his introductory remarks when presenting the amendment he sponsors, appreciable assistance could thus be given to both humanitarian and educational work in other countries at little or no cost to the American taxpayer.

In the far-flung programs of America's voluntary oversea relief agencies there are mountains of unmet needs. There are thousands of clinics and other medical facilities which could be assisted. There are tens of thousands of schools at all educational levels which could be served and there are hundreds of community projects which today could be helping to transform the economic life of entire communi

ties if urgently needed equipment and surplus materiel were placed within their reach. Such projects would, of course, be based upon the use of both indigenous resources and personnel.

Let us give you one example.

Catholic Relief Services N.C.W.C. has been attempting for several years to initiate in Ecuador a land clearance and utilization project to be staffed by an existing colony of Italian migrants. This carefully developed project suffers presently from a lack of earth-moving machinery of all types-from road scrapers to bulldozers. Catholic Relief Services-N.C.W.C. have been asked, for instance, to supply 2 bulldozers, a motor grader, a carryall scraper, a number of dump trucks, etc., to further this particular project. Unfortunately, at the present time there is no way to acquire this type of equipment on a basis within the financial ability of the sponsoring agency. Yet it is well known that our stores of surplus materiel include such pieces of machinery by the hundreds.

What we are proposing is that the present amendment be broadened (a) to include among the stated end uses self-help or community development projects and (b) to include a provision for the routing of U.S. Government surplus materiel into already established programs through America's voluntary agencies. Likewise, we are suggesting that such materiel be made available to American voluntary agencies not only from disposal depots abroad but from existing stocks within the United States.

Not the least of the problems in connection with such a disposal effort as envisioned by the proposed amendment would be that of transport from the point of storage to the point of use. The inclusion of surplus materiel available in the United States in the proposed amendment would make possible the forwarding of such urgently needed supplies through the transport facilities already available to the voluntary agencies of America."

In closing, may I state on behalf of Catholic Relief ServicesN.C.W.C. our hope that such use and scope as we have proposed will be made possible under the proposed legislative change. May I, at the same time, on behalf of Catholic Relief Services-N.S.W.C. commend the sponsors of both bills for the great understanding of worldwide human needs evidenced in their proposals and assure them that they will have the complete cooperation of Catholic Relief ServicesN.Č.W.C. and the other voluntary agencies of America in the conversion of these aims and objectives into successful reality.

Thank you, sir.

Senator GRUENING. Thank you very much, Mr. Kinney.

I am wondering whether road scrapers and bulldozers in surplus are present in Ecuador. Now, the problem, of course, would come if they had to be shipped from another continent. The cost of transshipment would more than equal the total value.

My understanding is that, wherever possible, this surplus is distributed and would go from the nearest point where it is stored to where it was needed.

Mr. KINNEY. Yes, sir. I am not conversant with all of the surplus depots, but I believe the major ones are Panama in this continent; the Far East, in Tokyo; and Africa and Near East, Morocco. If they

57809-60-3

are in Panama there should be no serious problem in shipping to Ecuador.

Senator GRUENING. You do not know whether this project is on the seacoast?

Mr. KINNEY. It is in the interior. But we could get the cooperation of the Ecuadorian Government in transporting the equipment to the site.

Senator GRUENING. Well, thank you, Mr. Kinney.

Mr. KINNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator GRUENING. Mr. Patterson, do you wish to make a statement?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator GRUENING. Please proceed.

STATEMENT OF A. W. PATTERSON, AMERICAN FRIENDS SERVICE COMMITTEE, PHILADELPHIA, PA.

Mr. PATTERSON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, my name is A. W. Patterson, and I am representing the American Friends Service Committee for which agency I serve as director of shipping and purchasing.

The American Friends Service Committee, which was organized in 1917, is a social action agency of the Religious Society of Friends (also known as Quakers) and is dependent for its support on voluntary contributions. We started with relief and rehabilitation projects in France, Germany, and Russia at the close of the First World War, and are now operating welfare and/or educational programs in many countries, directed toward expression of good will through service projects, the promotion of international understanding, lessening of tensions and avoidance of war.

We have undertaken extensive relief operations in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Middle East, and have been particularly concerned with aiding refugees, such as those in Europe after World War II, Palestinian refugees in the Middle East, refugees who fled from Hungary in 1956 to nearby countries, and more recently the quarter million Algerian refugees in Tunisia and Morocco.

While we favor any constructive use of Government excess property as envisaged in bills S. 2725 and S. 2732, we believe that American voluntary agencies registered with the Advisory Committee on Voluntary Foreign Aid should be specifically mentioned in whatever legislation may be enacted on this subject as being among the eligible recipients of donated excess property for use in programs of health, education, refugee relief and other appropriate humanitarian purposes. We could use, for example, large amounts of blankets and tents in our Friends' program of assistance to the very needy Algerian refugees in Tunisia and Morocco. Our efforts last autumn to obtain excess Government blankets for this purpose were unsuccessful. In conclusion, we believe that inclusion of the recognized and experienced American voluntary agencies as eligible recipients of donated Government excess property would be effective in helping meet human need throughout the world, an objective in which the American public is vitally interested.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.