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compensated for in the increased pension. For as my Comrade Ketcham has so well said, thousands and tens of thousands—aye hundreds of thousands-live upon the money that is given to them by a great Government, not to pay them for service, but to carry into effect a solemn contract made by Abraham Lincoln and Edwin M. Stanton and all the long line of patriots from then to now. Every party, every statesman worthy of the name, North and South, has promulgated the same doctrine. We can afford to do it without straining our resources, and build the Panama Canal in addition.

Now, gentleman, we have a great bunch of talkers here. I do not know how much you will stand.

Mr. CHAIRMAN. We are used to it.
Mr. Brown. We do not want to bore you.
Mr. Hoog. We do not want to lose any more has beens.”
Mr. CAMPBELL. You have not heard your call yet.

Mr. Brown. Then I will take the liberty of calling upon Hon. A. G. Weissert, past commander in chief of the Grand Army, a lawyer that still claims to be a lawyer, from Wisconsin.

STATEMENT OF A. G. WEISSERT, ESQ., OF MILWAUKEE, WIS. Mr. WEISSERT. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, it would be an imposition on you were I to address you

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time after you have heard the eloquent words of the commander in chief and Mr. Ketcham, and I do not purpose, directly or indirectly, to take up your time for any such purpose. But if there are any questions that the chairman or any member of the committe desire to ask relative to the proposition now before you, I will be glad to endeavor to answer them.

Mr. CHANEY. Mr. Loudenslager, we speak somewhat from those things with which we are well acquainted. A great deal of the pension question has come up over two classes of people. One is composed of those who draw $12 a month under the act of 1890, but who are totally disabled and have no means of support. Some of them have to have the aid and attention and attendance of another person. The Invalid Pensions Committee, in its rule on granting private pensions, has always given those people $24 a month if they do not require the aid and attendance of another person, and $30 if they do. This bill does not increase the pensions of any of those people.

Mr. Brown. It is a pure service pension.

Mr. CHANEY. And we have felt that with as much attention as has been given to that class of people, when a pension bill is put through Congress it ought to include those people. Twelve dollars a month will not sustain such a person, and they are not all of them 75 years of age, so as to get even $20. Twenty dollars in this day and age of the world will not take care of an old soldier, or anybody else with an old wife if he has no ability to earn a dollar himselfno means of support and no income. The question is as to whether this is doing as much as we ought to do. “ Half a loaf” is all right, but here is a class of people who are now present with us and who are insisting upon our good purposes; and, as Mr. Sulloway, the chairman of our committee, knows, three-fourths of the work that is done

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by the Invalid Pensions Committee is on account of people of that class.

Mr. Macon. Now, Mr. Chairman, if my colleague here will allow me, I think this bill provides for that. It says here, in line 6, page 2:

And nothing herein contained shall prevent any pensioner or person entitled to a pension from prosecuting his claim and receiving a pension under any other general or special act.

Mr. CHANEY. But here is a man who can not get but $12 a month. He is pensioned under the law

of 1890, sir, and he has not received disabilities from the service. They have come on entirely since and he can not get $12 a month, consequently, to save his life, unless we give it to him by special act, such as we can give in the Invalid Pensions Committee.

Mr. Macon. He still has that recourse under this act.
Mr. Chaney. No; he has no chance under that act to do a thing.
He is drawing the maximum pension now.

Mr. CAMPBELL. May I suggest that there is a bill now pending before the Invalid Pensions Committee, introduced by myself, giving $30 a month to all disabled veterans of the war of the sixties, from whatever cause the disability arose.

Mr. CHANEY. Oh, yes; there are a number of bills pending before the committee. The question has been as to how much you could do and what we can do with the pocketbook we have, and what is our duty.

Mr. Macon. My thought is along the line of the thought of this committee here—that we should pass this bill, and then take care by special legislation or by general law of the classes of disabilities that are now provided for by special law.

Mr. CHANEY. As to special bills, we can continue to pass those, but we can not pass enough of them.

Mr. Macon. You can not pass enough of them.

Mr. CHANEY. And as to any further general legislation, you will find that this will end it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chaney, if you will pardon me, this bill does not take care of any class except one class. It does not propose to take care of any class except one class. That is the class that served, from private to brigadier-general, for ninety days. That is all.

Mr. CHANEY. I see; and I say I do not think that does enough.

There is another thing to which I would like this Grand Army of the Republic to give consideration. The widows here are demanding of us additional pension legislation. The law is that unless a woman's husband died of a disease contracted in the service she can not gat but $8 a month, and yet she is possibly as worthy as anybody, and possibly ought to have $12, and we give her $12 in special acts. We do not provide for her in this bill. Ought not these two other classes to be provided for?

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Chairman, Hooker won Lookout Mountain one day, and Grant won Missionary Ridge three days later. Let us not have it all on one day. Give us what seems to be practical in your minds, and we pledge the Committee on Invalid Pensions that we will take what they have in mind if they will give it to us; but we are asking to get something.

Mr. Hogg. You do not want to let go what you have

Mr. Brown. We do not want to let go this bill and this Congress, because this Congress will never convene again; and we want to go to our comrades, seven years after we amended the last general pension bill, and say, “ We have accomplished something." But let us not put it off.

Now, my good friend, who was born in Ohio—you can see it in his face—has a great, great heart; and we are perfectly willing that Missionary Ridge shall come after Lookout Mountain. Give them

What he says is true. We all agree on that; but that is another proposition. Here is a service pension, and we have been talking about it in this country for fifteen years.

I would like to have you hear from Comrade Bishop, a member of your House, upon that point, if the committee please.

STATEMENT OF HON. ROSWELL P. BISHOP, REPRESENTATIVE

FROM MICHIGAN. Mr. BISHOP. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I have neither the time nor the disposition to make a speech; but as a Member of this House and a member of the Grand Army, I do want to appeal to you to pass this bill.

I believe it is a step in the right direction. We can imagine many bills and many measures that would do great good to the class of deserving men who served in the war, or to their widows or orphan children. But we to-day have this bill before us. It has passed the Senate. It is before this committee. The opportunity is here for you to do something beneficial to a great number of deserving men who served in the war of the rebellion. And I want to say to you that I want to see you pass this bill, and pass it just as it is now; and I know that you will receive the hearty commendation of a great majority of the Members of the House, and none more so than men like my friend Macon here, or my friend Judge Richardson, who come from the Southland.

I tell you, gentlemen, the time has never been in this country when we could better afford to be generous to the soldier than at this hour and at this session of Congress. The Treasury was never in better condition to bear the burden of a little additional pension. And when I read this bill over, and saw how little it took to meet its requirements, I wondered that there would be a moment's hesitation. And still I have great sympathy with my friend here on the left, who is on the Invalid Pensions Committee; and to-day, if I could make the choice and put a bill before this committee just as this is put before the committee to increase the pensions to the aged veteran who is blind, the man who is stricken with paralysis, the man who is helpless, perhaps bedridden, that class of people who have appealed so strongly to the heart of my friend Chaney and to the heart of my friend Sulloway, I would take that bill and take care of the helpless rather than a great many that would be benefited by this. But as I say, we have this here. You can do this meed of justice. I hope you will. [Applause.)

STATEMENT OF JOHN R. KING, ESQ., OF BALTIMORE, MD. Mr. King. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I would like to burden you with just a little statement.

As has been stated, this is not an invalid pension bill nor a disability pension bill. We do not wish to legislate Mr. Sulloway and his committee out of office, because they are doing so much good and will continue to do good.' But there is one point that seems to be a bugbear to a great many people, and that is the possible expenditure that our bill will create.

You will remember that when the famous order, No. 78, was issued, it was then estimated that there would be 175,000 beneficiaries. The fact is, gentlemen, that in the nearly three years since the issuance of that order there have been but 21,000 added to the rolls by virtue of it. Now then, take that estimate as a probable guide to what this bill will carry. I contend—and I have no means of knowingthat $6,000,000 will carry out the provisions of this bill for the first year, at least. Why? Simply because the soldiers will not take advantage of it. The men are not alive to take advantage of it, and the deaths will offset the possible increase of the expenditures. The survivors of the civil war are dying now at the rate of at least 8 per cent annually.

Mr. Hogg. The pension bill as reported, Mr. Chairman, carries $138,000,000. That total ought to be increased if this bill passes.

The CHAIRMAN. The Appropriations Committee will take charge of that in the urgent deficiency bill.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Yes; the urgent deficiency bill will carry that.

Mr. DICKSON. Mr. Chairman, if you will pardon me for interrupting, I am vastly interested in this bill, strange as it may seem, and I am deeply impressed by what Brother Chaney says about these invalid soldiers. This bill does not take care of those people at all, as I understand, and I would like to ask if it is the purpose, at some future session of Congress, of the Grand Army of the Republic (and I speak of them because, of course, they are the official representatives of the soldiers) to press for passage a bill that will take care of the class of soldiers to whom Judge Chaney has referred, and who, we all know, are so needful of assistance Is it their purpose to press the passage of a bill that will take care of them, in addition to the passage of this bill, if it should pass?

Mr. Brown. The comrades who are here are to serve until next September, when they will retire from office. I do not feel authorized to say what another national encampment might do; but I want to say to my young friend from Illinois that the American Congress has never yet failed to take note of the pressing necessities of the defenders of the Republic, and I trust that his opportunities for doing good will be enlarged and extended, and he might come with this bill to the Sixtieth Congress, and we shall ever pray for the life of his soul if he can pass it. We are not authorized to say, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, that we shall ever come again. I might give you my personal thought, for I have been coming here for twenty years, and I rather like to come here and then get away.

Mr. Dickson. It is a case of "sweetness long-drawn out." If the chairman will permit me, I will add that owing to the exercise of

extraordinarily good judgment on the part of my constituents down in southern Illinois, it will be impossible for me to be here during the time of the Sixtieth Congress.

Mr. Brown. I greatly regret it.

Mr. DICKSON. However that may be, I am fully in sympathy with your aims. The purpose of my inquiry was this, Mr. Chairman: While I would like very much, so far as I am individually concerned, to meet the wishes of this committee that no amendments be added to this bill, and while I am heartily in accord with the proposition of " half a loaf,” if this is going to mark the end of all general pension legislation I think that

the people who are really disabled should be included. If there is a possibility of future legislation going further than this, then this is all right.

The CHAIRMAN. If you will pardon me a moment, I think I can answer that. My impression of past legislation regarding all of the wars in which this country has been engaged is that there has never been a service-pension bill passed except a purely service-pension bill. No other conditions have ever been attached to it. So that this bill would seem to follow the long line of precedents. Considering the lateness of the session and the many amendments (and perhaps very worthy ones) that might be advocated and advanced, some of which might be incorporated in it, they might defeat the very purpose for which these gentlemne are here.

Mr. Dickson. I want the chairman of this pension committee of the Grand Army to understand that I do not propose to advocate the adoption of an amendment or propose an amendment.

Mr. BROWN. No; I understand.

Mr. DICKSON. Because I do not propose to put myself on record to do anything that will in any way defeat the request of the Grand Army of the Republic in this instance. [Applause.) And as far as I am personally concerned, I trust I may be pardoned for suggesting that I do not want my position on this matter misunderstood, Mr. Chairman,

The CHAIRMAN. No.

Mr. Dickson. Because I (if you will pardon a personal allusion) happen to come from a long line of soldiers that date clear back to the Revolution; and while we fellows of 1898 did not have a chance to do much, when 1898 came I happened to be one of those fortunate fellows who responded to the call, and went and did what we were ordered to do. And I trust that the time will never come, whether I am young or old, that I will ever take a position that will in any way embarrass the old soldier; because I want to go on record here now, whether I am ever a member of the National House of Legislature again or not, as being for anything that benefits the old soldier or his widow, from first to last.

The CHAIRMAN. We know your record, sir.

Mr. RICHARDSON of Alabama. As I understand, Mr. Chairman, this bill makes a provision that no person shall receive a pension under any other law at the same time or for the same period that he is receiving a pension under the provisions of this act. That is very, very specífic, and defines the provisions of the bill with great clearness.

Mr. Hogg. I would like to get this committee together to pass on this very matter. Shall we take it up at the next regular meeting?

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