Mr. REID. What do you think about it?

Mr. CROSSER. As I say, I would want to see it first. I have not been granted the privilege of seeing the thing. If I had, I would be in an entirely different situation; but if I am convinced of the possibility and probability, from examining the man's attitude and his connections and his reputation for truth and veracity and intelligence, that he has perhaps done this, the mere fact that it might not technically be something that was patentable at the Patent Office would not stop me for one second from granting him protection such as he asks. I would grant protection something like this: I would say, "If you satisfy the eminent scientist approved by the United States Government and yourself together, that you have discovered the means or an instrumentality which will make unlimited energy immediately available, I do not give a snap of my finger whether you call it new or old, which will give the service to the people of the United States, you ought to have the benefit that comes to anyone from having given such an expression to the people."

Mr. REID. That should apply to every useful thing, shouldn't it? Mr. CROSSER. No. This thing is of such magnitude that it is practically the discovery of a new world, when you come to consider it from a scientific standpoint. If he has done this, he has discovered a new world, in my opinion—that is, so far as our scientific theories are concerned. I can sympathize with the gentleman's viewpoint, but I think if he will stop and reflect about it a moment, there is not one nickel to be given to him. He is not asking for a nickel. If there is any likelihood of his having discovered such a thing as he claims to have discovered-do not call it discovered, do not call it invented-if he has made available, that is the better term, because that is what it is, whether it would be a discovery or an invention-and that fear was aroused by different fellows coming with boxes before our patent committee and over in the House, claiming that they had discovered things in the way of securing energy and such propositions as that, and making the man think "If I produce my proposition these fellows will immediately say they have had the same thing."

Mr. MCLEOD. They might say that it was just the application of a principle?

Mr. CROSSER. That is it. They might say that it is just the application of a principle that is already known.

Mr. REID. In what form of law are you going to get this? Did you introduce this?

Mr. MCLEOD. Yes.

Mr. REID. What do you call this?

Mr. MCLEOD. A resolution.

Mr. REID. What for?

Mr. MCLEOD. To adopt and give Mr. Giragossian the privilege of demonstration of whatever he has.

Mr. LANHAM. It is an amendment of the law.

Mr. MCLEOD. It is an amendment of the law. The precedent has been already made. There is no new precedent in the adoption of this resolution.

Mr. REID. And it is not a patent?

Mr. MCLEOD. It is giving him the mere privilege, such as he would have in a patent. That is the idea.

Mr. REID. A patent extraordinary?

Mr. MCLEOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. CROSSER. No; it is a protection.

Mr. REID. What is a patent but a protection?

Mr. CROSSER. Of course a patent is a protection, but all protection is not patents.

Mr. REID. I am going to vote for this, whether it is good, bad, or indifferent. It does not make a bit of difference.

Mr. CROSSER. I sympathize with the gentleman

Mr. REID (interposing). You do not need to sympathize with me. I disagree with your argument, although I am going to vote for the resolution. You ought to O. K. it, and I can not agree with your argument.

Mr. CROSSER. No. I say it is reasonable, if there is any probability of it being what it claims for it.

Mr. REID. If he has got the jimjams or anything else, it would not make any difference to me.

Mr. CROSSER. I am simply calling attention to the fact that a great many people that were classed as crazy turned out in the final analysis to be the benefactors of the human race.

I do not think that there is anything more that I can add. I am sorry to have taken as much time as I have.

Mr. REID. I am convinced by your statement that we ought to go ahead.

Mr. CROSSER. I think most of the men in the House feel that way about it.

Mr. Cook. It won't hurt the Government.

Mr. CROSSER. No, sir.

Mr. LANHAM. Mr. Chairman, I am glad that you have arrived.. I wish to state that the chairman has been attending another committee meeting but has now returned. I was just about to say that this particular meeting was called to hear Mr. Giragossian and give him an opportunity to be heard.

Mr. REA. But you are not going to vote on this resolution to-day? Mr. LANHAM. I do not know that we have time.

Mr. REA. If you are going to vote, I would like to have something to say. I do not want, however, to take up your time.

Mr. LANHAM. I think we ought to hear you before we vote. Mr. REA. If I can not show you we have got the goods, and that we have been in this thing for 30 years, and that we have patents leading up to it and that we are ahead of Mr. Giragossian or anybody else we would like to have the Government of the United States have a square deal. Mr. Giragossian has nothing at the present time, unless you pass a resolution, because he failed in his demonstration.

Mr. MCLEOD. Yes; he has. He has the law right now.
Mr. REA. We are on the same basis as he is.

Mr. WEFALD. If he has anything, he ought to have priority over

you.

Mr. REA. No; we say he has not; but that is not the question here.. You gentlemen represent the Government of the United States, and we claim

Mr. LANHAM (interposing). I think we ought to hear Mr. Giragossian this morning. This is merely a hearing, and we are not passing on anything.

Mr. REA. I have nothing to say, if you are not.

Mr. REID. I think we ought to pass on it if we want to.
Mr. Cook. I am ready to vote now. I am convinced.

STATEMENT OF GARABED T. K. GIRAGOSSIAN, BOSTON, MASS.

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. Honorable chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I sincerely thank you for giving me this privilege to express my wish about these matters. This is a most complex matter. It is simple, but at the same time it is very complex. I have been here three times on this thing before. If I have to go all over this again and say this and that, it would really take a week. I have to speak about 20 or 25 minutes. Therefore, I ask that hearing taken before the Senate committee in February of 1923 shall go into the record, because of the public interest, and for the benefit of Members of Congress and all concerned. I wish that a few pages of the hearing at which I had the privilege and honor to be heard before this committee, in this same room, shall be incorporated into the hearing, and if you grant my request it will be doing me justice and it will be for the benefit of anyone who may be interested in it.

Mr. REID. Do those go into the record, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. LANHAM. I was just wondering if they are not available. There is no use to have those printed if supplies of them are available.

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. I can not go and give separate copies of them to each Member. For that reason, I hope that you will permit them to go into the record and be printed. I can convince no man unless he has these hearings before him. I shall ask your permission, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. LANHAM. You mean about this?

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. Yes; to go into the record.

Mr. LANHAM. That is a matter for the committee to determine.
Mr. MCLEOD. I make the motion that it go into the record.
Mr. REID. I second the motion.

(The motion was put and carried.)

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. Now, I do not think that is a big request. Many times the record has something that I do not state, and things are left out that I have said.

Mr. Cook. I move that he be allowed to correct his remarks in the record.

Mr. LANHAM. I think he will have that privilege, anyhow.

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. I would like the privilege to revise what I say here now.

I simply again thank you for giving me this privilege too. This House Joint Resolution 190, introduced by Honorable McLeod, is not a new thing, but we are going to amend House Joint Resolution 174 of the Sixty-fifth Congress. When this resolution was reported favorably, without any change, by the committee, then some people came to Washington, D. C., and they and some others wrote letters that they had the same thing. Not only that but they went also be

fore the newspapers all over the country and accused me publicly of having stolen their invention.

When the previous resolution was passed 240 against 14, it failed to receive President Wilson's signature. However, before the introduction of this Joint Resolution 174, it received the approval of the President.

However, when this Joint Resolution 174 came before the House for discussion its opponents brought a fraudulent invention to the very floor of the House in order to prevent the passage of the vetoed resolution in question, which had been modified and reintroduced. In the discussion, some Representatives, pointing to the box, called attention to the fact that many persons claimed they had the same or similar inventions to mine. Then the House attached an amendment to the resolution. Through the lapse of time, the amendment fulfilled its function and all the claimants have been exposed to be absolutely impostors or slanderers.

All this is explained extensively in my memoranda which will be printed in this hearing. Whatever I may say in this respect will be a repetition in some form or style of the same identical expression. For this reason I refrain from doing that. However, I wish only to make feasible and workable Joint Resolution 174 in question, which represents the thoughtful will and noble object of our Congress, while this resolution 190 in discussion will amply protect any wouldbe or possible inventor or discoverer of anything similar to my claim.

Mr. REID. You have told us about all your troubles. Now, what about this invention? We are going to help you. What do you want?

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. I want to have stricken out that which says the scientists would certify that he is the original inventor, etc. Scientists will not comply with that stipulation.

Mr. REID. We have got that out of the way. This resolution does not call for it.

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. Yes; this resolution will do that. Everybody's right is protected.

Mr. REID. He does not have to prove that is the original invention under this?

Mr. MCLEOD. No.

Mr. REID. We have got that for you. Then what next do you want? If there is any invention, and he demonstrates it, he has the right to enjoy all the benefit and protection in the world. I mean, this resolution hasn't anything to do with asking any man to bring his work before the committee, before the Patent Office, or anything.

Mr. GIRAGOSSIAN. The passage of this resolution will not infringe upon the rights of any other possible inventor and they can enjoy the full credit and benefit of their work.

Now, gentlemen, this is the last time that I am going to be here. You will have to consider that I have worked for 25 years, and many young men, especially Americans, whose forefathers were in the Revolutionary War, men like Mr. Robert Hennessy, have helped me, not for personal interest, but for the glory of this country. Many persons have said to me, "You can go to a foreign country

and I said, and I will say again, that I will die with my work here rather than be a billionaire by going into a foreign country. That I will never do. I prefer infinitely to die in penury here rather than to be a traitor to my adopted country.

I came to this country 33 years ago and I have been protected always. The libraries, the schools, and every educational institution have been at my disposal, and I have enjoyed the friendship and the respect of this country's men, that hardly I deserved. But for seven or eight years I have done not one penny of work, but I have been supported by American money. How can a man work and be helped as I have in a country and then be a traitor to that country? I will never be that.

I am not asking any personal favor, but I pray and expect that you will not drive me from here to Boston disappointed, despondent, and to perish in broken heart. The last time when I was here I became despondent. One night I was taken ill and they had to take me to Emergency Hospital. I stayed there one or two days and then I came back. I never will believe that you will take the responsibility and block the way for such a great work. I will never expect that you will protract or destroy this work to the detriment of all the human race. In the world there are 1,700,000,000 men, and all posterity is looking for such an invention.

Honorable chairman and gentlemen, please do not be indifferent. Will you deprive mankind of his rights and destroy the hope of humanity? I will never believe that. I have confidence in you. I suppose I have not conducted myself as I was asked. Mr. Crosser said, "You should do this way and not that way," and many persons have said you have to do this way. Will I accept that? I am fallible. I have in many cases done wrong. I understand that, but I am a slave to my instinct and I can not help that.

I do not believe that gentlemen like you, sworn under the Constitution to promote the welfare of the people and protect the inventors will punish me because I did not conduct myself as you thought was proper. Will you punish me at the expense of all humanity, which is something that I can never expect?

I thank you very sincerely.

Mr. MCLEOD. I make a motion that we report this bill favorably. Mr. REID. I second the motion.

Mr. REA. May I say a few words? There is a motion before the House, and I would like to speak to it.

The CHAIRMAN. I got the impression the other day-possibly I was mistaken-that we granted the gentleman's request to hear him before we took action.

Mr. REA. That was my understanding.

The CHAIRMAN. Just let me make a statement, please, with your permission.

Mr. REA. I beg your pardon.

The CHAIRMAN. While there is no connection between the two matters and this committee is not bound, for the reason that we said we would grant this man a hearing, to defer action on this, I just bring it up at this time for the consideration of the committee. Then there is another thing. We have had this hearing, and we are going to include in the hearing a complete résumé of the matters