municipal limits, because here again conditions differ. But even more important, we have the law-enforcement personnel to enforce them. The Federal Government does not. It has only two men in our State representing the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit, and the last arrest I recall in this State was several years ago when one of our dealers was arrested, and later released, on ground sale of .38 caliber fountain pen tear gas guns was a violation of that act. These little defensive items had suddenly become very popular in Phoenix because of a series of cases of forced entry by rapists and attacks on working women while waiting for buses at night. I believe the situation had even gotten so bad that some of the police were urging women to get these tear gas guns to use in their self-defense.

I urge you to leave firearms regulations to the States. The best thing you could do would be to amend the present Federal act to merely require common carriers to comply with State law in delivering packages containing firearms. Particularly objectionable in the present law is the provision making any person under indictment for a felony who receives a firearm in the mail guilty of violating the Federal Firearms Act. This provision does violence to the basic American principle that every man is innocent until proven guilty.

MIAMI-ARIZONA RIFLE AND PISTOL CLUB,
Globe-Miami, Ariz., January 22, 1964.

BEN AVERY,

Secretary, State Rifle & Pistol Association,

High Power Rifle Division, Phoenix, Ariz.

DEAR MR. AVERY: We would like to inform you that our club is 100 percent in agreement with you and your views on gun registration in general and on the Dodd bill in particular.

We wish you a successful trip to Washington and if we can be of any help to you, just holler.

Good luck again.

Sincerely,

BURTON M. ROOT,

Secretary, Globe-Miami Gun Club (formerly Miami-Arizona Rifle &
Pistol Club), Globe, Ariz.

Mr. GLENN C. TAYLOR,

COCONINO, SPORTSMEN, Flagstaff, Ariz., January 15, 1964.

President, Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Association,
Tucson, Ariz.

DEAR GLEN: Many of our members have been following with great interest, the developments on the proposed Dodd bill regarding firearms registration. Last evening at our regular meeting a motion was passed asserting our opposition to such a proposal and an endorsement of the position taken by your organization was made.

It is our sincere belief that the intent of such a proposal would not be accomplished by legislation which woud be utterly disregarded by the criminal element. It appears that the vast majority of opinions expressed by people on the streets or through the letters to the editor are opposed to this encroachment on our personal liberties.

We hope that you and the delegation are successful in stifling this regretable piece of legislation and our membership pledges support this cause.

Sincerely,

MILTON G. EVANS, Secretary.

ARIZONA GAME PROTECTIVE ASSOCIATION STATEMENT OF POSITION RE FIREARMS

LEGISLATION

The Arizona Game Protective Association does hereby oppose the enactment and/or amendment of legislation or the promulgation of regulations by any political entity or subdivisions or administrative agencies thereof, whereby restrictions are placed upon the acquisition, ownership, or use of firearms or upon their possession without registration by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes, or whereby the burden of establishing the lawful purposes or the lawabiding character of the citizen is established as or declared to be a prior requirement to be met by the citizen.

I hereby certify that the foregoing motion was made, seconded, and unanimously adopted at a meeting of the executive board of the Arizona Game Protective Association on Saturday, January 18, 1964, in Phoenix, Ariz. Dated and signed this 23d day of January, 1964.

J. PHILLIP CLEMONS, President, Arizona Game Protective Association.

ARIZONA GUN COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION, INC.,
January 23, 1964.

Mr. Glenn Taylor, Mr. Ben Avery, U.S. Senate Commerce Committee, Washington, D.C., Other Interested Persons or Parties:

The Arizona Gun Collectors Association, Inc., affiliated with the National Rifle Association, wishes to take this opportunity to support the views of the NRA, Arizona Rifle and Pistol Association, and countless other organizations in reference to any restriction deemed harmful in the sales or registration of guns, certain aspects which are present in the Dodd bill.

We, as gun collectors, have many firearms, and as collectors do much buying, selling, and trading. A considerable amount of these transactions are consummated through the U.S. mails. For this specific reason, we object violently to the method of obtaining affidavits, check of affidavit by law enforcement officers, which would seem to add a burden to them, and return of the affidavit and signed receipt from such officer. We fail to see what this can accomplish, but cause confusion, delay, irate citizens pursuing their constitutional guarantee, and an added burden to our already overburdened law enforcement officers, particularly in a time of reducing many bureaucracies and useless paperwork. A good point to be brought out in the proposed legislation is that the law enforcement officers cannot possibly know, or even be able to check, without added expense, all the citizens under his jurisdiction for such references. The person who has past violations, etc., would not order by mail, but more likely have a friend with no record, order it for him. It is obvious that the loopholes are many and very large, and that, at best, the proposed legislation is nothing but an added burden to the law enforcement officers who have a job to do apprehending criminals and violators of the present, adequate laws that we now have in force.

Many of our members and colleagues are also dealers of collector guns-both antique and modern-for a collector may collect military arms or modern autopistols as well as flintlocks; these dealers in many cases would be forced out of business by such legislation, as they deal through the mails. This in itself, would seem unconstitutional and against principles of the small businesses in America.

LARRY TIMMER,

President, Arizona Gun Collectors Association, Inc. Senator THURMOND. I want to commend you upon a most excellent statement, sir.

As I understand, your feeling is this matter should be left to each State? And then if Congress chooses to do so, it could merely require the common carriers to comply with the State laws, when delivering packages containing firearms?

Mr. AVERY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Thurmond, that is correct. I have with me, which I would be happy to give to the committee, a hastily marked-up copy of the bill the way I think this could be accomplished, and also, accomplish some of the objectives of the Attorney General, who would like to bring under the Federal Firearms Act some of the crimes that were not previously enumerated.

We have our State laws which were written to conform to the old Federal Firearms Act, to strengthen it in enforcement. And we would refuse to change our laws to conform with this law, I am certain. But to make the thing more effective, we must have State laws conform to the Federal Firearms Act.

Senator THURMOND. Isn't it a matter of fact anyway that the criminal, if he is determined to get firearms, is going to get firearms, and you merely are handicapping the citizen who wants to keep a gun or pistol in his home for his protection? And you may hamper him from doing so, if you are not careful what you pass here?

Mr. AVERY. Mr. Thurmond, I feel that is exactly correct.

Senator THURMOND. Thank you very much for your appearance here.

Senator CANNON. Senator Yarborough?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Avery, I think your statement on page 5, where you point out two things that have added to this problem today, I think those remarks are very well taken.

First, you say a cause of the problem today is the exaggerated Western on TV network shows that make killing an act of heroism in almost everyday life, contrary to every principle of law. I fear that our rate of homicides in America is going to increase as the generation reared before television sees murder hour after hour, day after day, so easily and passed off as such a minor thing-with none of the great tragedy, gory details and aftermath shown on television. With their young, impressionable minds, they will grow up viewing murder as something easy that happens every day. I fear we haven't even seen the beginning of the trouble that is being caused by that.

The second is your point that the dumping of millions of cast-off military guns, the staggering array of cheap pistols made with cheap labor also contributes to the problem.

I recall I grew up in a rural area, where possession of a gun was deemed very desirable, necessary in some areas, and guns were treasured because they were expensive. They were not easily to come by. A man bought a gun and it meant he had to sacrifice along some other line. You couldn't just go out and buy a gun as if you were buying a steak. And the cheap availability of guns, I think, is one cause of part of the present problem.

I agree with those two points in there. We have a terrific problem in the country and I think you put your finger on two of the basic

causes.

Mr. AVERY. Thank you.

Senator CANNON. Mr. Avery, you have said you feel firearms control is the responsibility of the States. I wonder if you feel there is any responsibility at the Federal level?

Mr. AVERY. Mr. Chairman, I do think, at the Federal level, the States can be assisted tremendously if we can have a law that will require and I think it probably should require-both the manufacturer and the mail-order house and the common carrier-to comply with State laws in making deliveries.

I don't think this is an undue burden, because at the present time these people, the manufacturers and the mail-order houses, are required to comply with State tax laws anyway and we send our tax auditors out to audit their books, whenever necessary.

Senator CANNOK. In other words, you feel the Federal responsibility or authority should be limited to the prevention of circumvention of the local laws, insofar as the use of the interstate commerce is concerned?

Mr. AVERY. Yes, sir; I do. And if this is done, then the States can tie their law into the Federal law and have a very good working combination. It would be bad to have a law that can't be enforced. This way it could be enforced.

Senator CANNON. These hearings have brought out the fact that there are many States that do not have effective State laws, and many that have laws, but laws which are not effective.

I am wondering if you would support an effort to draft a uniform State law?

Mr. AVERY. Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I couldn't, because States differ so greatly. In the Eastern States, they need laws here that we don't need in the West.

Now in Arizona, we have the reputation, I think, of having the most liberal firearms laws in the country, yet our laws are carefully worded, they were worked out by the shooters and the law enforcement people, so we would have laws that we can enforce. We repealed a lot of old laws on our statute books that were never enforced. One of them said you couldn't sell anything above No. 6 shot to an Indian— all kinds of stuff to prevent shooting up the town in pioneer days.

But we have on our statute books a modern set of laws now that we can enforce. But we have lots of ranchers in our country, and we still have a lot of animals. Right now we are having a rabies outbreak. People need guns that live in the country.

My folks have a ranch in New Mexico, and my brother-in-law and sister run it. My sister has to stay there many times for a week at a time alone and we still have hobos coming through the country; she has a gun and she knows how to use it. We have lots of people that are in the same boat. So guns are still a necessity in much of the country.

In other parts of the country, they may not be. So I think we can't have a uniform State law. But I think the citizens of each State are cognizant of this problem, and I think they will take the necessary action to control it.

Senator CANNON. I see you state that under Arizona law, a written consent of the parent or guardian is required for delivery of a firearm or ammunition to a person under 18.

Do you believe minors should not be permitted to possess firearms without parental approval?

Mr. AVERY. Yes, sir; I do. I wrote that law.

Senator CANNON. Of course, that is one of the provisions that is covered in this Dodd bill.

Mr. AVERY. That is right.

Senator CANNON. Are there any other questions?

(No response.)

Senator CANNON. Thank you very much for appearing here and giving us the benefit of your views, Mr. Avery. I assure you the committee will give full consideration to them and we are very happy to have had your escort here today, the distinguished senior Senator from the State of Arizona, Senator Hayden.

Senator CANNON. The next witness is Leonard E. Reisman, deputy commissioner, New York City Police Department. Mr. Reisman.

STATEMENT OF LEONARD E. REISMAN, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, POLICE DEPARTMENT, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Mr. REISMAN. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, before proceeding to my prepared text, may I point out that I am not insensitive to the interests of the sportsmen and the gun enthusiasts. I, too, am one. I, too, competed at Camp Perry, before the war, and shot an impossible at a thousand yards. I am a member, probably not in good standing any longer, of various gun clubs. So my remarks are the result of the consideration that should be and has been given to the interests of the sportsmen, the hunter, and the lobbyist.

I am gratified at this opportunity to state the position of the police commissioner of the city of New York, Michael J. Murphy, concerning the proposed amendments to the Federal Firearms Act.

New York State has some of the most stringent restrictions on the sale and possession of pistols and revolvers. Therefore, attention naturally focuses on the efficacy of our procedures in terms of curtailing illegal traffic in weapons and in the prevention of crime. May I briefly set forth the present legislative enactments in the State of New York.

At present, sections 1896 through 1904 of the penal law of the State of New York deal with this subject matter and are referred to colloquially as the "Sullivan law." The so-called Sullivan law was originally added to the organic law of the State of New York by chapter 195 of the laws of 1911.

It takes its name from the fact that the bill which was enacted into law was sponsored by Senator Sullivan. From the time of its enactment to 1963, it was amended more than 60 times.

At the 1963 session of the State legislature, the existing sections of the law covering pistols and revolvers were rearranged and recodified and reenacted with the same substance as chapter 136 of the laws of 1963.

In the State of New York, no one (the short list of exemptions is of no relevance in this discussion) may legally possess a pistol, revolver, or other firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person unless he has first obtained a license.

The procedure whereby a person applies for and receives a license is very detailed and involves an intensive investigation both of the applicant and of his need to possess the firearm.

Likewise, no one may deal in firearms or engage in the business of gunsmith in the State unless he too is licensed. Here again, the procedure for licensing is most detailed and the investigation is most intensive.

Applicants for any of these licenses must be fingerprinted, and their fingerprints are checked not only within our department but with the New York State Department of Correction and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Each applicant is screened by name with the Department of Mental Hygiene of the State of New York to determine whether at any time he had suffered a mental illness or disability.

A field investigation is made by the local police authority; in the city of New York our department verifies all statements made by the applicant, and interviews the applicant and all references supplied by him.