Senator DODD. Yes, I believe it would.

Senator CANNON. In other words the weapon was sold to a person under 18 through the mails in that case?

Senator DODD. Yes, I think so, but I want to check my facts. Yes, he was 16, the boy who bought the gun. This bill would have prevented that because it requires him to be 18.

Senator CANNON. On page 3 you state that it requires one seeking to buy a gun through the mails to state in an affidavit his name, address, age, whether he has a criminal record, and whether the purchase would be contrary to local or State law.

Assuming a person did fill in that information, and he showed his age to be over 18, that he did have a criminal record, but the purchase was not contrary to local law, would he still be able to purchase under those circumstances?

Senator DODD. No, he would not. The seller couldn't deliver the weapon to an individual who had been convicted of a felony.

Senator CANNON. But it would have to be a felony as you have set out in your statement?

or

Senator DoDd. Yes.

Senator CANNON. In other words, a conviction for a misdemean

Senator DODD. No; not a misdemeanor, a felony. He would have to be convicted of a felony.

I don't believe we should prevent the sale to a man found guilty of a breach of peace, or overtime parking, or some city ordinance of that kind.

Senator CANNON. In your testimony concerning the situation in South Carolina, under the present act wouldn't it actually be a violation of the law, of the Federal act at the present time, if South Carolina required a license?

Senator DODD. Yes, I think it would.

Senator CANNON. But it is not, as it now stands?

Seantor DODD. No.

Senator CANNON. Because they are simply prohibited from making a purchase under interstate law.

Senator DODD. That is right.

Senator CANNON. Senator Thurmond?

Senator THURMOND. Senator, as I understand your bill, it is aimed at interstate shipments, and does not interfere with international law or any city ordinance?

Senator DODD. That is exactly right, Senator Thurmond. It has only to do with interstate shipment of firearms.

Senator THURMOND. This is about the only way you could control a gun from going interstate into the hands of criminals or dangerous people.

Senator DODD. It is about the only way I know. I suppose we could require total registration of all guns, maybe simply prohibit the sale or delivery through the mails. I think that is going too far, however.

I don't want to go so far as that. I don't think we need it. I know there are some who urge that. But my own judgment is that this can be effective, this can help. It is better to try this way. Maybe we will have to come to a total prohibition of the interstate shipment of firearms. I don't think we do. I don't think the situation yet requires that we face up to that.

Senator THURMOND. There are some people who feel so strongly about this subject that they would prohibit anyone from owning a firearm. Of course you are not taking that position here.

Senator DODD. No.

Senator THURMOND. You are not trying to prevent anybody from having a firearm in their home to protect the home or the fireside. This is purely a matter concerning interstate shipment of firearms. Senator DODD. That is all. That is all it is.

Senator THURMOND. I would never favor any provision that would prevent a family from having a firearm in their home to protect it. Criminals are going to get firearms; and therefore people in my judgment ought to be allowed to have weapons in their homes to protect it.

Senator DODD. This bill doesn't interfere with that.

Senator THURMOND. That is my understanding of the bill.

With regard to the law of South Carolina, I want to say that it is really not very clear. There have been decisions both ways down there. The law is not exactly clear, and I understand there is going to be an effort made to clarify the law in my State on this subject, which I think ought to be done.

I think the purpose of your bill is a very worthy purpose. I sincerely hope that we can get out a suitable bill on this subject. I wish to commend you for what you are doing on this matter.

Senator DODD. Thank you, Senator.

Senator THURMOND. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CANNON. Senator Dodd, the Justice Department has proposed, made a proposal, to ban all interstate shipment of firearms except to dealers and manufacturers. Do you support that type of proposal?

Senator DODD. No, Senator. I think it goes too far. As I said to Senator Thurmond, I don't think we need to go that far now. And I hope we do not. I think this is a reasonable effort to regulate this traffic. I think it can be effective and extremely helpful. That is why I did not go that far.

We listened to some people who urged that: We talked to a lot of people, and we heard a lot of people whose consensus was that we should not go that far at this time.

Senator CANNON. Section 2(c) of the Federal Firearms Act already provides:

It shall be unlawful for any licensed manufacturer or dealer to transport or ship any firearms in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed manufacturer or dealer in any State, the laws of which require that a license be obtained for the purchase of such firearms, unless such license is exhibited to such manufacturer or dealer by the prospective purchaser.

Actually if States enacted licensing laws, wouldn't that do away with the necessity for Federal legislation of this sort?

Senator DODD. Yes, indeed, it would. But they haven't. I thinkit is not really germane here that perhaps this committee would consider, and I hope it will, at a later date, the idea of trying to get a uniform law, some uniformity among the States, with regard to the sale and delivery of weapons. Now it is a sort of a crazy quilt pattern. Some States have very good regulations, some not so good. That

is why that provision of the Firearms Act is for all purposes ineffective with respect to many jurisdictions.

Senator CANNON. I might say that the committee is already working with the bar to try to work out some type of a uniform act that could be recommended to the different States.

Senator DODD. I think that would be very helpful.

Senator CANNON. Senator Morton.

Senator MORTON. Senator Dodd, I went over my mail this morning on this subject prior to this hearing. I am awfully glad that you made the point you did at the top of page 6, that "The firearm is a unique product." Most of the opponents, the opposition mail that I have received, strangely enough concerns itself with this point, that this is not going to do any good; the next thing you are going to ban is the interstate mailing of a carving knife. I think you have clarified this, because a carving knife has a purpose in the kitchen. I appreciate the point you make, that really the end purpose of a firearm is to deliver some lead, and any other purpose is completely extraneous. A knife, certainly any weapon or any instrument can be used in a violent manner, but I think your point is well made here, and it shows, I think, a lack of understanding on the part of the public when more than half of the objectors to this bill expressed, in mail to me, have gotten to this point, that the next thing you will be controlling is the mailing of an ice pick.

Senator DODD. I have received such mail, too.

Senator MORTON. I commend you for your approach, and I agree with you that certainly it doesn't violate any of our constitutional traditions. And I also agree with you that this should be a first step, and that the proposal of the Department of Justice perhaps goes too far at this time.

Senator DODD. Thank you, Senator Morton.

Senator MORTON. We had in the early part of this century a Governor of Kentucky assassinated, Governor-elect assassinated while in the inaugural parade preparatory to taking his oath. Our people are conscious of this kind of tragedy and have been for years. În that case, I might add, the one who took the rap for this was in jail, one trial after another, and in prison for many years. Finally he was acquitted. And the people of his district sent him to Congress for as many years as he had been in jail. After he had served his time out in the Congress, equal to the period he served in jail, they beat the devil out of him in the primary and retired him to private life.

Senator DODD. I might say I don't know which was the more severe punishment.

Senator CANNON. You are not suggesting that that be made a form of uniform punishment; are you?

Senator MORTON. No.

Senator CANNON. Senator Hart?

Senator HART. Mr. Chairman, Senator Morton's comment about his mail reflects the kind of mail that I have seen, too. But there are some concerned expressions which have indicated a sensitivity on this issue that I am very glad we are having hearings on the bill in order that à record can be made so that all of us will understand what in fact is proposed, and make our own judgments as to whether this is an effective response.

The mail includes letters from a real "stupid"-is a kind wordfringe of the community. I am sure others on the committee are receiving mail which suggests that you are really leading a Communist conspiracy here, because nothing would please our enemies more than to know where our guns were.

Senator DODD. Yes; I have had some such mail myself.

Senator HART. This is always unfortunate because it obscures some of the responsible kind of mail we get. I am interested indeed to have the spokesman for the Rifle Association describe their action.

Senator DODD. Yes; I believe they will be available. I said we had consulted with them at great length.

Senator HART. In a sense your prepared statement responds to this, and yet I wonder if by paraphrasing it, an answer to a direct question might make it more clear for the record; the argument of whether this is or isn't an undue burden by law on the citizen is one facet of it. What is your answer to the charge that this isn't going to cause the criminal set any trouble anyway. The fellow who shot the Governor of Kentucky could have gotten it done. The fellow who shot the President could have gotten it. What effective action will this have in terms of those people?

Senator DODD. Senator Hart, it will only make it, I hope, a little more difficult-I believe, a little more difficult-for such a person to get a weapon of this kind through the mail, by mail order.

And that is about as much as we can hope to do. There will always be people who beat the law, I suspect. There always have been. And the criminal element spends a good part of its time to devise schemes and ways to do so. It has been a constant struggle of society to keep up with them.

Under these circumstances, this is another effort on the part of society to curb the criminal element. So I say it is only an effort to get more control over them without unduly burdening our own people, our own business enterprises, ourselves. It is a little burden, but we have to carry some in order to get a more peaceful situation.

Senator HART. I think that the sportsmen of America are willing to carry the burden, if it is demonstrated that there is a compensating good to society.

Senator DODD. I do, too.

Senator HART. A compensating good is determining the nuts and the criminals. And the sportsman's concern is how is this going to disarm any criminal or any nut.

Senator DODD. It will just make it more difficult for one to get a gun through a mail-order house.

Senator HART. As the father of eight small children, I am all for controlling what comes into the house by way of weapons. The sportsman I think is going to have to be persuaded that somebody beside him is going to carry a burden. He will carry a burden if the fellow who is a criminal also is burdened by this.

Senator DODD. If a criminal violates the law, he will be burdened all right. He will be prosecuted I hope, and punished for doing so. Senator HART. I think it more likely that the criminal wouldn't be burdened by this because he can go around the corner and buy one at the shop.

Senator DODD. Of course he can.

Senator HART. It may be that, in fact, there is more persuasion to argue that the minor child can be forestalled from getting a weapon,. and that the unstable might be, because the fellow at the gun counter can see a minor to be a minor. If the village lunatic turns up, he knows he is the village lunatic. I am not convinced that this will give any honest-to-goodness criminal any bit of trouble at all.

Senator DODD. I don't agree. I think it will give him some trouble. It will make it a little more difficult, and that is trouble of a kind.

For example, the gun that was used to kill President Kennedy was shipped through the mail. And interestingly, the name and the address were false on the mail order. A fictitious name was used, and a post box address. There has been a lot of that in the mail-order business. We checked on the deliveries in the District of Columbia for a period of time, as a test only, and found that a lot of the guns that had been shipped in by mail were shipped to fictitious names, nonexistent persons as far as we know, and to nonexistent address. The receiver would pick up the package, rather than have it delivered, to beat this false address.

At least the affidavit requirement here of a true name and address, a copy of which will be sent to the police, will give the police a chance to see if there is such a person, and if he does live at such an address, and what kind of an individual he is, and does he have a criminal record.

So I say it is some improvement anyway over the chaotic, intolerable-I think-situation prevailing now.

Senator HART. I think this is the kind of answer that will be helpful to permit the sportsman to make a judgment on the kind of bill we are discussing.

Senator DODD. I hope so. The reason I am so pleased that the committee called this hearing, I think it gives us a chance to clear up a lot of the misconceptions in the minds of many people, including sportsmen, as to what has been proposed.

Senator CANNON. Senator Dodd, you made a point there that the application would have to be sent to the police, the local police, and that he would have the opportunity to check. You are in effect imposing a State responsibility there. I am wondering really where the responsibility does lie. Does it lie with the Federal Government or does it lie with the State? In other words, is Federal legislation. justified simply because the States refuse to act in this area?

Senator DODD. Senator, if I said the affidavit had to be sent to the local police, that was a misstatement. What is required under this bill is that the seller notify the police, send them a copy. All they get is information. They know that this gun is going to be delivered to this named person at this address. They don't have to do anything. The police can ignore it in the District of Columbia. That isn't a good case, perhaps. Say, Hartford in my State, for instance: they can throw it away. But they receive notice that such a weapon is being delivered to such a named person at such an address.

I suspect that the police of this country will want to get this information and every chief of police, every police commissioner, will set up some machinery for checking on the person to whom the weapon is to be delivered.

So yes, they will carry some responsibility for it. It will be a cooperative thing. But I don't find any trouble in that. I think that is