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of the proposal there. I believe there is a road that parallels the creek, and there is an aqueduct, and the idea of cherry-stemming the road would also encompass the creek. So I am not sure you are going to get a lot of protection there.

Second, I think the State of Utah would agree with Mr. Hansen and yourself that this is a balancing process, and I do not believe there is any wilderness in the Lower 48. If you want wilderness, you need to go to Siberia or Alaska. What there is is rural land. That rural land is being used-has been used since the Indian times and the pioneers for a lot of purposes. What the state is interested in is the balance between those uses and setting aside this land as some sort of protection zone, which we have agreed to do. We have all of those appendices that were previous Congressional statements about how those lands were managed. They include wildlife management techniques; they include grazing; and we would argue they include the water needs. We support that. That is a compromise. It is there; it is law, and we support the reaffirmation of that here.

That is it; thank you, Congressman.

Mr. CANNON. Thank you; actually, another question occurs which I would like to ask you, Mr. Young. We had Teddy Roosevelt, III in our Committee the other day, and I had a very interesting discussion with him. I asked him and would like to just repeat my question to you about the possibility of doing a―are you familiar with Deseret Ranch in northern Utah and the concept of holistic resource management?

Mr. YOUNG. Yes, I am.

Mr. CANNON. Would you support or oppose or do you have an idea yet an experiment in the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument that would utilize the techniques of holistic resource management in that area? You realize that the rainfall is about the same; you know, this is a big, huge area in the monument, of course, but in much of the monument, the rainfall is about the same as that very lush Deseret Ranch. Is that something that you personally or that your organization would be interested in seeing happen?

Mr. YOUNG. While we as an organization do not have a formal position, I suspect that as long as the management technique did not compromise the integrity of the wilderness-quality lands contained in America's Red Rock Wilderness Act, it would not be an issue that we would address. But if it did compromise those lands as the holistic management strategy was implemented, then we would have concerns. So it is an open question that we would have to look at.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Roosevelt's response was, you know, the bison used to wander the area; they chewed the grass down so it had the ability to grow up more robustly. They left biotic material; they broke up the surface. He understood the concept and then went on to say that if there was a small study that the groups that he is associated with would tend to support that.

I asked him if 100,000 acres would be viewed as a small study; he thought that that would be. We are not going to get a consensus, I am sure, on every detail, but you recognize the difference in the lushness of the Deseret Ranch and what we now have in

southern Utah. Is that something in principle that you personally would like to see happen?

Mr. YOUNG. Would I like to see the experiment?

Mr. CANNON. The experiment, relatively small, 100,000 acres.

Mr. YOUNG. As I said, we would have to look at the specifics. We would have to see if it would compromise wilderness quality lands. If it did not, then it is probably an issue that lies beyond the realm of our organization's focus, but we most likely would not have a problem. The question is what would its impact be on wilderness quality lands.

Mr. CANNON. As I understand what you are saying is that if this is outside the Red Rock Wilderness area, and I do not know how much is outside; I mean, you know, that is a huge area. I do not know if you could do that experiment outside. But if it were outside, you would not care. On the other hand, if it were inside some of those areas, you would care. Is it possible to come to an agreement? Should we pursue discussion with you, or should we go about it with other groups?

Mr. YOUNG. Oh, I think if the holistic system would compromise wilderness, when we seek passage of America's Red Rock Wilderness Act, and so, we do not have an antigrazing provision within that bill.

Mr. CANNON. Good, because I think that the Cow Free in '93, No More Moo in '92 movement by some of the environmental groups was deeply destructive to the environment, and I hope that we can turn that around. Just for the record, the Deseret Ranch is a remarkable place that is healthy and robust and highly productive of life, and I think that the area where I grew up, to a large degree, in southern Utah that is now in that monument could have the same robustness, and I would like to see that happen.

So we will probably deal with you again on that in the future. Thank you again very much for your time.

John, did you have something you wanted to add? You look like

Mr. HARJA. I am fine.

Mr. CANNON. Okay; we thank you, and with that, this Committee will be in recess-not in recess; it is actually adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 4:43 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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