Representative HOLIFIELD. What is the name of that powerplant up in New London? Admiral RICKOVER. Mill Stone Point. It is a typical commercial nuclear powerplant, and I'm certain that a large percentage of its operators will be ex-sailors and its administrative people ex-officers. Representative HOLIFIELD. Do they pay them more than the military scale? Admiral RICKOVER. Yes, sir. They get more than the military scale. These young men average about 24 years of age. From their standpoint, why should they serve on board a ship where they are away from home a good deal of the time and have to work harder, when they can get a civilian job, which is a union job, with 40 hours a week and more pay? Representative HOLIFIELD. Don't you think you would be faced with the same situation, Admiral, even if they were getting a bonus payment because of the desire to lead a normal life? Admiral RICKOVER. Yes, and particularly young men who are just beginning to raise a family. I think anyone can understand that. However, these young men and their families can tolerate more personal privation if they have adequate monetary compensation for their hard work. To give you a comparison, we operate our nuclear submarines on the order of [deleted]. The reason we do so is because there are so many demands for the services of nuclear submarines--for [deleted] and many other uses. We just don't have enough to satisfy the demand, so they are driven very hard. If a young man can benefit himself, increase his salary by 50 percent and do a much easier job, he is going to do so unless he has a strong commitment to the job the Navy is trying to do. It is natural. Representative HOSMER. Will you go back to the threat to your training program? Admiral RICKOVER. The threat to the training program is not so much a specific action someone is trying to take, but rather the constant pressure being applied to have us take people who are not as capable as the ones we now take in and to reduce the time of training. These are the two threats we face all the time. TRAINING PROGRAM ADEQUATELY FUNDED Representative HOSMER. In the proposed fiscal year 1973 budget, do you know whether there are sufficient funds to carry out the training program as it has been carried out in the past? Admiral RICKOVER. We have sufficient funds to carry out the training program even though the number to be trained is drastically increased because we have more ships coming in and our turnover rate is so high. We can take care of it, if we have no interference. Even with careful screening, we lose during the year about 18 percent of the officers and 40 percent of the enlisted men who enter our training program. Representative HOSMER. Then the threat you are speaking of is not insufficient funds Admiral RICKOVER. No, sir. Representative HOSMER. But the assignment of men and officers to nuclear training. Is that it? Admiral RICKOVER. That is part of it, sir. Representative HOSMER. Nobody has prescribed a shortened time, and you have sufficient funds to carry on the long term Admiral RICKOVER. Yes, sir; it is not a question of funds. Representative HOSMER. Then it is the thing you run into all the time in competition with the rest of the Navy over quality of the men who are going to be assigned to you Admiral RICKOVER. And I recognize they have their problems, too. But I am sure they do not understand the impact on the operation of these ships and the necessity for such training in the interest of public safety. Chairman PASTORE. Is this threat just shoptalk, or is there an imminence of some new plan being inaugurated? NEED FOR EXCELLENCE NOT RECOGNIZED Admiral RICKOVER. It is more than just shoptalk. For example, there was a recent study of many Navy training programs to look for savings in man-years and dollars. One recommendation of the study group was to halve the academic phase of our training program, thereby saving 600 man-years. This type of exploration is not new, but each occurrence requires a detailed reclama to reaffirm the longstanding Navy-AEC understanding on the importance of thorough training and high standards. Representative HOSMER. Do you want us to call in the CNO and have him advise us what the situation is? Admiral RICKOVER. No, sir. I don't think that is necessary at this time. Mr. WEGNER. May I comment, sir? I think there is a point that should be made. It is not finances. That is not the problem. În the case of officers, you are talking not only of the number needed for the nuclear program that exists today but the number you will need to supply the department heads and commanding officers necessary 10 years from now. The latest estimate indicates we should be training somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 officers a year. That is the minimum acceptable level. But we aren't doing that. We are putting in somewhere around 400 to 425. Not being able to get adequate numbers causes us a problem downstream. It means that the officers spend more time at sea. They can't go ashore. This results in a morale problem, and people get out. It is a vicious circle. GREATER PERSONNEL INPUT TO TRAINING PROGRAM REQUIRED The nuclear training program has to have the ability to tap the resources of the Navy in order to get 600 people. We have to get these 600 people as volunteers, and they have to come from the top of the pile. They are very hard to come by, and so far we have not been able to get adequate numbers. It is because of this situation that we are getting considerable pressure to lower our standards and ease up on the training so that we can get more people through. Representative HOLIFIELD. May I ask a question at this point? Has there been any study made as to whether it would be cheaper to give these experienced men an extra financial inducement to stay on than it would to bring in and train new people? Mr. Wegner. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, several years ago Congress passed a bill authorizing over a period of 5 years a $15,000 bonus to submarine officers if they would stay. Representative HOLIFIELD. Did it work? Mr. WEGNER. Yes, sir; but that program has ended. I think the Navy is going to have to come back and say that we are going to need another bonus to help ease this problem. Senator SYMINGTON. I would ask a question. Your complaint is about the way the Navy is administering the program; correct? Mr. WEGNER. It is not a complaint. It is really the case of a problem Senator SYMINGTON. Are you satisfied with the program the way it is? Mr. WEGNER. No, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. If you are not satisfied with it, which department in the executive branch could change it? Mr. WEGNER. The Navy itself Senator SYMINGTON. Then you are dissatisfied with the way the Navy is handling the program. Is that right? Mr. WEGNER. How we can get more Senator SYMINGTON. I just want to be sure we have our ducks in a row as to just what your complaint is. Mr. WEGNER. We do need more young officers coming into the program Chairman PASTORE. Still, isn't this all one "ball of wax," and the Navy generally is having this problem Mr. WEGNER. Yes, sir. Admiral RICKOVER. The Navy is having this problem all over. Chairman PASTORE. It is one of the problems we have today. Admiral RICKOVER. The Navy will have to make up its mind on priorities too. Chairman PASTORE. That is right. I think, generally, there is disenchantment on the part of many young officers because they can do much better in private industry. But you know the minute you raise your salaries, industry will raise their salaries too, and they can always ontbid you. That has always been the problem with public service. They can never get as much money in public service as they can in private industry. I, myself, think-and as Chet Holifield said-there has to be some inducement in the interest of national security to attract and to keep these young men. I think this is a problem that exists throughout the entire military posture, however. EVERYONE IN THE MILITARY GETS PAID THE SAME Admiral RICKOVER. One of the problems in the armed services on a broad scale is that everybody gets paid the same. There are some good officers and some who are not so good, but everyone of the same rank gets the same pay. Chairman PASTORE. That is the case in the Senate also. We all get the same money. [Laughter.] Admiral RICKOVER. I think you deserve more. Representative HOLIFIELD. As I understand it, you are not complaining about the number of officers you have today but that the input of trainees is so slow that you can see a point where you are going to be short of officers because of the increased number of submarines; is that correct? Mr. WEGNER. Yes, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. If the way you have put it is correct, what is the problem with the CNO? Why doesn't he agree with you? He is interested in the best Navy. Admiral RICKOVER. The best answer I think is that the CNO has many children—— Senator SYMINGTON. So it is a question of your bidding against the other fellow; is that it? Admiral RICKOVER. You will remember what happened to Joseph when he was favored by his father. The others ganged up on him. Senator SYMINGTON. So you think they are ganging up on you? Admiral RICKOVER. It isn't a personal thing, sir. Senator SYMINGTON. I wonder why he doesn't understand this problem. Admiral RICKOVER. I think he probably does. Senator SYMINGTON. Isn't he the one who decides on the budget? Admiral RICKOVER. This is not a budget matter. It's a matter of approach. Senator SYMINGTON. Isn't the CNO the one who would decide on personnel division or has Secretary Chaffee reversed what Admiral Zumwalt Admiral RICKOVER. No; Admiral Zumwalt has not been involved in this. In fact, he has been very helpful. Senator SYMINGTON. Is the Bureau of Personnel independent of Admiral Zumwalt? Who runs that ship? I am simply trying to find whether you are trying to get more money in order to keep more people Admiral RICKOVER. Before you came in, sir, it was stated that it was not a question of money Senator SYMINGTON. I thought you just said if you were able to give a $15,000 bonus to another officer, he would stay in the Navy. INCREASED PAY WOULD HELP RETAIN PERSONNEL Admiral RICKOVER. Mr. Wegner mentioned that the Navy was going to ask for a continuation of the bonus and he hoped Congress would back this. Earlier I was talking about another money matter. Namely. that the recent military pay bill favors new enlistees, 85 percent of whom get out after their first enlistment. Yet, the people who are valuable to me in this program. those who have been in 6 or 7 years, are not favored by this new pay bill. In my opinion it would be much better to use pay incentives to get people to reenlist because they are already trained and they might make the Navy a career. This is more desir able than taking care of a large number who are untrained, unqualified, and most of whom will get out anyway. Senator SYMINGTON. What do you suggest this committee might do to be of service in this request? in Admiral RICKOVER. I would recommend that a sufficient increase pay be given to induce some of these experienced people to stay on. Senator SYMINGTON. I thought you said it wasn't a problem of money. Admiral RICKOVER. When the question of money came up relative to the pressures I encounter to downgrade training, I said it wasn't money. I was expressing concern that we maintain an adequate level of training for this program. Senator SYMINGTON. If this is a question of money, how much more money do you want? Mr. WEGNER. Senator Symington, if I may interrupt, the Navy has a proposal which it is just about ready to make to the Congress which will ask for authority to give a bonus to second term reenlistments in certain key selected areas. They have a fairly extensive outlines of how much it will cost. Chairman PASTORE. This is out of our jurisdiction. This is a matter for the Armed Services Committee. I don't want to shut you off, but Senator SYMINGTON. I don't want to waste the time of this committee if we can't do anything about it, but Senator Dominick and I are on the Armed Services Committee, so it is of interest to us there. I was asking, if they want more money, why do they want more money and how much do they want? Chairman PASTORE. I would hope you will develop that in your committee. Senator SYMINGTON. I didn't start the discussion, and I don't necessarily want to develop it here. But if we are going to have this type of discussion, I wanted to understand it. Chairman PASTORE. I appreciate that. Now, we want to hear about this authorization SUBMARINE OFFICER TENURE Senator AIKEN. I wanted to ask what would be the average tenure of a well-trained submarine officer if he wasn't spirited away by outside inducements? Admiral RICKOVER. He would probably stay on for 20 to 30 years or more and end up getting one of the senior jobs in the Navy. That is happening today for those who do stay on. More and more nuclear trained people are being selected for captain and admiral and getting senior jobs. In other words, these are pretty good people to retain for the entire Navy. Senator AIKEN. Are most of the nuclear powerplants of the country operated by naval trainees? Admiral RICKOVER. Yes, sir, a good percentage of the operators for the nuclear powerplants have been trained by the Navy. And this situation will probably continue. As an example one of the newer nuclear powerplants is being manned by over 80 percent Navy trained |