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Q. Are your vessels engaged in fishing?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you been engaged in that business?-A. I have been engaged in this business about ten years.


Q. You have heard the testimony touching what we desire from Canada, the necessities of our buying bait there, and touching the effect of free fish, and all that sort of thing, from several gentlemen who have testified, have you not?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you agree with them?-A. I do. I can't see that there is any necessity of our vessels going in there for bait. I think they get more bait of us than we get of



Q. I wanted to ask especially your opinion about a close time.-A. My opinion is that if we don't have a close time the mackerel will disappear from this coast. Such an immense fleet of vessels going down there and breaking them up in their spawning season, when they first appear off Cape Hatteras or Cape Henry, I think has the effect to drive them off the coast, broad off, so that the large mackerel don't care to come in on this shore at all. I think that has been especially the case this year. And of course, taking so many mackerel full of spawn, in time will tend to cut off the supply; I think they will disappear on this coast altogether unless something is done to prevent it.

Q. They take porgies and mackerel indiscriminately, do they not?-A. Yes, sir. There have been no porgies on this coast for many years.

By Senator EDMUNDS:


Q. Do the mackerel spawn on this coast here?-A. I couldn't say as to that; I think they used to before we drove them away; I think they used to spawn around Cape Cod and Nantucket, but I can't say of my own knowledge; that is the impression I have always had.

Q. According to your information are any mackerel taken off your shores here— the nearest mackerel fisheries to this port-that contain spawn fully developed and about ready to be cast, at any time of the year?-A. I think they have taken them off Cape Cod; they used to, but haven't taken any this year and very few the year before. But I can't say as to that so well as some of the gentlemen who have been in the business longer.

By Senator FRYE:


Q. In your judgment, what would be the effect of a treaty with Canada by which she was given our markets free for a certain period, say fifteen or twenty years?—A. I know I should go out of the business.

Q. Why would you go out of the business?-A. We can't compete with them. They are building up their fleet at the expense of ours.

Q. Your opinion is that it would be destructive to our fishery interests?-A. That is my opinion. When I was a young lad I remember that our fishermen were prosperous, but now some of them have gone out of the business entirely.



Q. How far off this shore are mackerel taken?-A. The mackerel appear on this shore about the 10th of July, and are caught from 10 to 50 miles offshore.

Q. Have you any hand-line fishing?-A. Not now for mackerel.

Q. The fishing is all done by seines?-A. Yes, sir. There is some shore cod fishing on this shore. They catch those nearer.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. How many vessels have you in the business?—A. I think I have an interest now in fifteen.

Q. Both cod and mackerel fishing vessels?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. About the same classes of vessels that have been described by the other gentlemen? A. Yes, sir.

Q. About the same number of men to each vessel?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. About the same proportion of American citizens?-A. Yes, sir. I am interested in small pieces with some of these gentlemen who have testified.

Q. Have any of your vessels been disturbed in the Provinces this year?—A. Ithink


Q. How many vessels this year have you had going into the North Bay, or what we call the Bay of St. Lawrence?-A. Six or seven; six, I think.

Q. They went for mackerel, I suppose?-A. They went for mackerel.

Q. Did they get fair fares?-A. Two of them got pretty near full fares. The rest of them came home with broken trips, which is very unprofitable.


Q. And they were taken, I suppose, as a matter of course, outside of the 3-mile limit?-A. They can't fish inside the 3-mile limit. There isn't water enough, as a rule.. Q. Your mackerel vessels, during the time you have been engaged in the business, I suppose have not caught fish to any extent within the limit?-A. Not until this year. Very few vessels that I have been interested in went to the Bay of St. Lawrence at all. It is only this year that the mackerel have gone there for a number of years. I think they have been driven off our coast. It has been a very unfortunate feature that they went this year and the year before.

Q. Has it been any serious inconvenience to your vessels in the mackerel fishery up there that they have not been allowed to go inside of the 3-mile limit, except for wood, water, etc.?-A. Oh, no, sir; they couldn't fish within the 3 miles.


PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.

HORACE M. SARGENT, sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Where do you reside?-A. Falmouth.

Q. What is your buiness?-A. Fitting business.

Q. Falmouth is close by Portland, is it not?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you the owner of any vessels?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many are you interested in?-A. I own pieces of about 15 fishermen, and I own a large fleet of coasters, about 25 vessels.


Q. Did any of your vessels get into any difficulty this season?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. What?-A. The schooner Ella M. Doughty.

Q. What was the difficulty?-A. The captain left Portland with fresh bait aboard to go halibutting. He had been a trip before of over a week, and got quite a large fare. He went back to the same grounds in hopes to get another fare, but they had moved by the time he got there, and so he started to go farther up the coast. When he got up the coast he fell in with the ice, and put into Pictou for harbor. While in there the custom-house authorities sent a boat off alongside and told him he would have to enter at the custom-house, which he did. He lay there a spell, and came out and tried to get up the coast from there farther, but the ice drove him into St. Anne's. I think he tried three times to get out. The second time when he was trying to get out, his bait was getting poor, and one of their fishermen came alongside and offered to sell him some fresh bait. As he had one of these permits to touch and trade, which he supposed was all sufficient to buy with, he bought the bait. These fellows that he bought the bait of went to the store there to do some trading, and the store man asked them where they got the American money. They told him, and then the store man made a complaint against the Doughty. She had to put back again to St. Anne's on account of the ice, and finally had to make up into the upper harbor. The captain didn't know that there was any custom-house there. He said there was a farm house away up in the field where the man lived who pretended to be a custom-house officer. That man came down and seized the vessel, and the captain and crew came home. Since then we gave a bond of $400 for not entering, and $200 for some other expenses (I don't know exactly what they were), and a $3,000 bond for the vessel.

Q. You gave bond to release the vessel and she has come home?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Has anything been done about it?-A. Yes, sir; Mr. Putnam is attending the case, and I suppose it will come up for trial this month.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. At what place?-A. At Halifax.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. How much bait did he buy?-A. He bought $10 worth; bought it very cheap; I believe he bought 10 barrels at $1 a barrel. He had one of these permits to touch and trade, which he showed, but they told him it wasn't good for anything. It was my understanding when he left port here that with that permit he could touch and buy anything.

Senator FRYE. The fact is that a telegram came from the State Department that it was good.

The WITNESS. I think so; we were led to think so.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. What time in the year was it that that vessel was seized?-A. I think it was in the month of May.

Q. She was in the Northumberland Strait, near Pictou?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. If it had not been for the ice driving her in she would not have had any occasion to buy bait?-A. No, sir; but, of course, it is very convenient for the halibut catchers to go in and buy bait.


Q. What kind of bait is used for halibut?-A. Herring mostly; when they can get herring they fish with it altogether, but when they can not they fish and catch haddock and cod, or anything they can get, and cut them up for bait. But herring will catch more halibut than this trash will.


PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.

N. O. CRAM, Sworn and examined.

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By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. What is your age?-A. Seventy-three.

Q. Where do you reside?-A. Portland.

Q. What is your occupation?-A. Commission merchant.

Q. You deal in fish as well?-A. Yes, sir; I have for the last forty years.

Q. Are you interested in any fishing vessels?-A. No, sir.

Q. Are you acquainted with the fishing business?-A. I think I am in some measure; I have had such connection with it that I have more or less knowledge.


Q. From your knowledge of the fishing business in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and along the Dominion shores, what do you think is the value to American fishermen of the right to fish within 3 miles of the shore?-A. I shouldn't judge it was of great value, because in deeper water there are more fish; and then, again, there is great risk in fishing within the limits; they lose their seines, and it is dangerous navigation. I don't consider it of any value.


Q. Do you receive consignments of fish from the British Provinces?-A. No, sir; I buy more particularly here, and have been in the habit of buying and shipping. Q. Where do you ship to chiefly?—A. To Boston, New York, and Philadelphia, and west of that; to Cincinnati some.

Q. Do you make any foreign shipments?-A. No, sir; not of late years.


Q. Have you any knowledge or information on the subject of what is called the close season for mackerel?-A. I think I have.

Q. Will you state it, please?-A. I think it is the death of summer fishing; it was so this year.

Q. Will you state why you think so?-A. Because they meet them south of New York and Sandy Hook, follow them up with seines, and head off the spawn fish.

The large ones will escape; they have cleared out and left, and haven't shown themselves along the coast from spring until now, but they have in great abundance shown themselves down in North Bay; there has been an unusual supply there this year; some vessels have been very successful down there in taking them.

Q. Have our vessels in the southern fishery at the beginning of the mackerel season been more numerous this year than formerly?—A. I think they were quite as numerous, if not more so.

Q. But they have been in the habit of fishing when the mackerel first appeared south of New York for a good many years, have they not?-A. Yes, sir; but I don't believe there are fifteen sail of vessel on an average, out of Maine and Massachusetts, in ten years, that have paid their bills in that spring fishing. But the fact is that after lying at home all winter the crews become impatient and want to get away, and so the vessels are sent to the south for the early catch, but I am satisfied that it would be better for them not to go. Take this last year; not 10 per cent have paid their bills, in my opinion. What fish they take are poor then. The vessels break up the schools and get them wild, and the most of them that don't go broad off will before they get up to the Georges and Shoals go off and come down below.

Q. What is the grade of fish that they catch first south of New York?-A. Very poor, indeed; No. 3.

Q. How would they be graded in the market here?-A. No. 3's, and very poor at that. If the mackerel could be allowed to take their natural course and come up along Nantucket and Cape Cod and their spawn all along undisturbed, the increase would show itself in two or three years very manifestly both in the quantity and in the quality.



Q. You are in the habit of purchasing fish. I want to inquire the character of the fish you buy that are caught in the waters of the Dominion. Are they a better quality of mackerel than those caught on our shores?-A. I don't think the Canadian fish are so good.

Q. Is the average Canadian mackerel a better fish than those caught by us?-A. I don't think they compare with ours in quality. They get a great many poor fish off the Provinces.

Q. The reason of my inquiry is that you stated that you thought that the southern fishery deprived us of the best fish, and that the best fish did not come to our shores, but went up on the Dominion shores. But now I understand you to say that the quality of the Canadian fish is not superior to the fish caught in our waters?-A. No, sir; it is not. Those fish that have been driven off this year are being taken now, and are getting to be a better quality than they were a month or two ago. I have a great many of them that have come from the bay, and they have been distributed around through the country. The quality of late has rather improved.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. When you say that our fish are better in quality, I suppose you leave out this early catch of No. 3's, and speak of the catch later in the season?-A. Yes, sir; later in the season, when the fish are around here and are undisturbed, they appear very much better. Then, again, being so recently taken, they don't discolor, as in the North Bay. Those fish we get there, if they lie any length of time, become dark.


Q. As a dealer in fish, do you in fact pay more, or less, for fish caught in the Canadian waters than you do for the mackerel caught here?-A. We pay very much more for the mackerel caught here. I bought fish to-day and paid very much more for those that are taken here. They sometimes catch a few along here, but there has been no supply whatever. We pay very materially higher for those caught here this year than we do for the bays.

Q. Do you deal in fresh fish?-A. No, sir.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. As a matter of fact I suppose there is better feed on our coast for mackerel than on the Canadian coast?-A. Oh, yes.


PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.

CHARLES D. THOMS, sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Where do you live?-A. In Portland.

Q. How old are you?-A. Sixty-three.

Q. What is your business?-A. Fish business.

Q. Are you the owner of vessels?—A. I am.

Q. How many?—A. Nine, I believe; seven in the mackerel fishery, and two shore fishing.

Q. How long have you been engaged in shore fishing?-A. Forty-three years; since 1843.


Q. Where have you, during those forty-three years, pursued the business of fishing for mackerel?-A. Mostly on this shore.

Q. What proportion of the mackerel taken during that forty-three years have been taken on our shore?-A. Nine-tenths of them.

Q. How frequently have you been into Canadian waters for mackerel. I mean the waters off the Canadian coast.-A. I have not been into the Canadian waters for mackerel before this year for, I think, eight or nine years. I have had two in there

this year. Q. Where did those two fish in there this year?-A.. In the Gulf of St. Lawrence.


Q. Within the 3-mile shore line?-A. No, sir-that is, I suppose not. I instructed them not to when they went. I have a vessel down there now that cost me $10,000. Q. Is it safe to fish down there within the 3-mile shore line with purse seines?-A. No, sir; it is not.

Q. Could it possibly be profitable to take mackerel within the 4-mile limit off the Canadian coast?-A. No, sir.

Q. Then, you have no desire that your mackerel fishermen shall be permitted to go inside?-A. No, sir.


Q. How is it about the cod fisheries? Where have you fished for cod during the forty-three years?-A. I haven't had much to do with codfish during the last number of years.

Q. When you did?-A. My vessels are all mackerel catchers, except some small vessels that fish alongshore. I have been running them winter fishing.

Q. Where have you pursued that?-A. Off here. Last year I ran to La Have, on the Nova Scotia shore.


Q. When you fished for cod off the Canadian shore have you had any occasion to buy bait from the Canadians?-A. No, sir.

Q. Do you wish for the privilege of buying bait?-A. Not any.

Q. Is it worth anything to the fishermen of Maine to be permitted to buy bait there?-A. I don't consider it so.

Q. Do you agree with these other gentlemen that have testified that, in their judgment, it would be more profitable if they never went into Canadian ports for any such purpose? A. Yes, sir; I do.

Q. Do you take your bait with you from here?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What kind of bait?-A. Salt bait.


Q. What is the name of your vessel that got into trouble down there?-A. The Eliza A. Thoms. She is ashore in Malpeque.

Q. Did she go ashore in a storm?-A. Yes, sir; collided with another vessel, and they are ashore there together.

Q. That is one of the vessels that the insurance man (T. C. Lewis) was speaking about? A. Yes, sir.

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