TESTIMONY OF CAPT. H. B. JOYCE. GLOUCESTER, MASS., October 4, 1886. C Capt. H. B. JOYCE sworn and examined. By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. What is your age?-A. Thirty-nine. Q. Where do you reside?-A. Portland, Me. Q. What is your occupation?-A. Fisherman. Q. Of what vessel are you in command at this time, if any?-A. The steamer Novelty. Q. How long have you been in command of her?—A. I had her the 1st of Septem ber last year. Q. Had you been engaged in fishing before that time?-A. Yes, sir; always since I was old enough. Q. What kind of fishing?—A. Up to the age of 20 I was mixed in with both cod and mackerel fishing in the season, and since that I have followed mackerel fishing altogether. 3-MILE LIMIT. Q. Where did you fish for mackerel?—A. Usually in the Bay of Fundy and along the coast of New York and New Jersey. Q. Did you fish up there in provincial waters during the existence of the treaty of Washington, from 1873 to 1885?-A. I was there in 1877 for three weeks; I was there. in 1878 for seven weeks; I was there in 1880 for five weeks; and I was there in 1883 for two weeks. Q. Was that the last time you were there in a sailing vessel?-A. I was there this season about eight weeks, I think, altogether, including the passage home. Q. Before last year you were in a sailing vessel, I suppose?-A. Yes, sir. Q. During all these years you have named where did you get your fish up there, as respects the inshore 3-mile line?-A. I imagine I didn't fish much different from the way we fished this year. We fished anywhere, and didn't take any notice. This year we haven't fished within that 3 miles, so far as I know. Q. A seafaring man can judge tolerably well, can he not, whether he is inside or outside of that limit?-A. If he takes the trouble he can measure from his vessel, but it is quite a little operation; you have to make a line and get your bearing and work it up by table, and if a man is very busy he wouldn't take the time. Q. Can you not judge by the eye pretty well?-A. We can tell within half a mile. Q. If you allowed half a mile for errors you would feel pretty sure as to your locality, whether it was inside or outside?-A. Yes, sir. Q. What proportion of the fish you took up there this last year did you take, or what proportion do you know of being taken by other fishermen, inside of the 3-mile limits?-A. I don't suppose over a tenth part. BAIT. Q. What has been your way of getting bait for cod? You do not fish for mackerel with bait now, I believe?-A. All the fishing I ever done, what we call Bank fishing, was always done with salt bait, and I think that is mostly used now. It is cheaper and saves time, and as a rule the fishermen get as many fish as with fresh bait. Q. Then, if I understand you, there is really no object in going into the British ports up there for the purpose of getting bait?-A. Our mackerel fishing is nearer the coast, and it is often necessary to go inside for shelter in bad weather. Q. I am not speaking of shelter; I am speaking of bait.—A. Oh, no, sir; we don't have any occasion to get bait up there. THE CASE OF THE NOVELTY. Q. Now, tell us your experience with the Novelty this year; how many voyages you have made, where you fished, what happened to you, and so on.-A. We started from Portland the 1st or 2d of July, I think, and went to the Gulf of St. Lawrence for mackerel. At that time it had been circulated in the newspapers that we could buy supplies of one kind and another there without any restriction, so we left this coast to go up there with only the balance of ice and coal that had been left on a cruise on this coast, and we were some 30 to 40 tons short of coal of what we needed, and with only 10 to 15 tons of ice when we ought to have had 30 tons. We went directly to Pictou to get coal, and went to the dock, not apprehending any trouble. It was Dominion Day when we got there, so all business was closed that day. The next day I went to the custom-house, and they gave me warning, as they call it, and I was notified that we could not get coal or anything else, and that we must proceed to sea within twenty-four hours from the time we got our warning. Q. What kind of papers did your vessel have?-A. A fishing license. Q. Was that all?-A. I had a permit to touch and trade. I carried that over to the custom-house, but they did not recognize it. They said the United States had no authority to claim any privileges of that kind for our vessels. Q. You did not have any clearance from Portland or Gloucester to Pictou?—A. No, sir; except simply that. Q. Did you get the coal?-A. No, sir; we went away without it. We went to Cape Prince Edward Island to a telegraph office and reported to the custom-house here, and telegraphed to the department at Ottawa to know if we could not have coal delivered us outside of the 3-mile limit. We did not get any answer to that. Parties there were very anxious to furnish coal to us, of course expecting pay for it. One man had a vessel load of coal there, and he said he would deliver us coal outside the 3 miles if he couldn't inside, and in case that was contrary to law he would take it over to Magdalen Island for us. The captain of the cutter there informed me that Magdalen Island was a free port and that we could buy and trade there. So I made arrangements to that effect, and went off to the fishing grounds and waited a week or so, but our supply of coal being so short we couldn't wait very long. After we got a fare, and the coal not yet having come, we bought some 12 or 15 cords of wood to make our coal go as far as possible, and in that way we managed to have enough to get home with. When we got home we took in all the coal and ice we could carry. By Senator FRYE: Q. The second time?-A. The second time. By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Did you deal at any Canadian place on that second trip?-A. Yes, we were in two or three places, and in every instance we went to the custom-house and reported. At Boston I notified the man of whom I had agreed to take coal delivered at Magdalen Island that I would call at Magdalen Island and if he was there would take all the coal we could get. But when we got there we found a vessel there and we were notified that we couldn't have any more privileges there than anywhere else. Q. Is there a British custom-house at Magdalen Island?—A. Yes, sir; they have two or three custom-houses. They have a custom-house at almost every place that has anchorage. So I told the party that I would take the coal of him if he would take it outside the 3-mile limits, but he seemed to fear that he might be compromised in some way if he did so, and we went off without it. We managed to get a small fare that time without using all the coal. We fished in the gulf twelve days on the last two voyages. Q. Did you meet with any further difficulty than the three instances you have spoken of?-A. We went back again on the fourth voyage, and on account of some neglect on the part of the dealers in Boston we didn't have as much coal as we had been carrying. We found after we had been there a week that we were not going to have much time to stay with what we had, and so I had an idea that I could get around them any way and would get some more coal. But the authorities mistrusted something of the kind, and the new cutter met us and ordered us not to transship any cargoes in British waters nor to touch at any Canadian port whatever; if we did our vessel would be seized. There wasn't much of anything there to stop for, and so we came home and haven't been there since. Q. What did you understand him to mean by "British waters"-inside the 3-mile limit or anywhere in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. He intended to convey the meaning to me that he meant anywhere in the Gulf of St. Lawrence; what he had to back it up with I don't know. Q. That is what you understood him to mean?-A. That is what I understood him to mean, although he might have meant to mislead me. Q. What was the name of that cutter?-A. The one they bought in New York. I didn't see any name on her, but I believe she is called the Acadian. Q. Do you remember the name of the captain?-A. His name was Scott, I think. He didn't come aboard; he hailed us. Q. How far were you from land at that time?-A. We were in the Straight of Canso, probably half a mile from land. Q. He met you passing through the strait at the time?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Under way? A. Yes, sir; he followed us part way through. Q. Does your vessel carrry sails so that you could sail her in case you were without coal?-A. Not enough to make much headway; we were practically helpless without coal. Q. The cod you were fishing for are taken at the Banks more than 3 miles offshore, are they not?-A. It is hardly in sight of land. Q. How many in your crew?-A. Altogether from 35 to 40. Q. How many tons burden is your vessel?-A. Two hundred and ninety-seven gross. COST OF VESSELS, AND WAGES. Q. What does it cost in round numbers to build a vessel ready to sail on a fishing cruise?-A. Mine cost $36,000. Q. What would be the cost of a 75, 80, 90, or 100 ton schooner, such as is ordinarily used?-A. All the way from $8,000 to $10,000. Q. Are your men on your vessels paid on shares? A. Yes, sir. Q. What share does an ordinary crew get?-A. They usually take half, but they pay certain bills out of their part. In our own case, they furnish their own board and bait, and pay the wages of the cook and firemen, because that pertains to their part; and then the vessel furnishes the steam fishing outfit. THREE-MILE LIMIT. Q. Suppose the treaty had still been in force, so that you would not have been embarrassed within the 3-mile limit, would you, so far as you understand the fishing this year, have fished inshore to any extent?-A. I don't think I could with any profit. I might have done so, because sometimes it is more convenient to fish inshore, but if we go still farther out we are very apt to find it better. In fact, the best fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence this year was from 5 to 15 or 20 miles offshore. PRESERVING FRESH FISH IN ICE. Q. How long does it take your steamer to come from Magdalen Island to Gloucester-take an average voyage?-A. We generally use about four days, but we are obliged to save on coal. We could make the distance in four days with much less coal than in three. Q. What would be the average time if you had plenty of coal?-A. About three days, if we had plenty of coal. Q. Do you bring in your fish fresh?-A. We did ours. Our vessel was fitted for that purpose. Q. What is the contrivance you have for that purpose?-A. It is a series of shelves, from the bottom to the deck, to run the fish on, taking them from the water line. When we get one set full, it is taken away, and we run on another, and so on until we fill the space full. The space will hold from 600 to 1,200 barrels. Q. How thick will they lie on those shelves; how deep?-A. About 18 inches. Q. Then you have those shelves surrounded by ice?-A. With ice at the bottom, and usually one or two courses of ice between and around the edges, too. Q. Have you found by experience that that keeps them in good condition?-A. It keeps them first rate. The first we brought here we brought in five days, and they compared favorably with those taken the day before. Q. What is the ordinary length of a schooner's voyage from Magdalen Island here?-A. I think somewhere from eight to ten days. Q. Do they bring fresh mackerel that far?—A. I have only heard of one instance, and the fish in that case arrived in very poor order. The inhabitants there ship their fish overland. By that means they arrive in the market in very good condition. If they had any facilities and were used to it, they could get them around here in less than four days. We can not do that on account of the restrictions. TRANSSHIPMENT OF FRESH FISH OVERLAND. By Senator FRYE: Q. You used to transship?-A. Oh, yes. By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. You have been in the habit before of landing your fish up there and sending them around by rail?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Where did you usually land them?-A. At a place called Point du Chene, the terminus of the Intercolonial road. Q. How far is it from the fishing grounds into Point du Chene? How far is it from Magdalen Islands?—A. It is much nearer the fishing grounds than Magdalen Islands. The fishing grounds are on the north side of Prince Edward Island. Q. So it makes a short run?-A. Yes, sir; it is very convenient there. Q. How much does it cost per hundred pounds to send fresh fish from Point du Chene to Boston?-A. I think about 80 cents a barrel. Q. In that case the fresh fish are put into barrels?-A. Yes; or boxes. Q. With ice?-A. With ice. Q. And those barrels are headed up so as to hold the ice and other contents tightly, I suppose; or are they allowed to leak?-A. They ship them in flour barrels and boxes and they must leak more or less. Q. The continuance of the treaty would be an advantage to the mackerel fisheries in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in respect of the fishermen being able to send their fish by rail to Boston, assuming that they had not any right to send their fish in that way now?-A. As far as salt fish go, I don't think it would make any difference. Q. I am speaking of fresh fish.-A. It would enable us to have an equal chance with them. As it is, they have the advantage of the railroad, which is denied us. Q. Under duty you stood equal in that respect, for the reason that you could ship and they could ship, and neither of you paid any duty. When they ship salt fish to come that way they have to pay a duty, but they ship their fresh fish now with an advantage, of course.-A. There is no occasion to ship salt fish, because they keep well enough. Q. It is cheaper to bring them home in the vessel than it would be to send them around by rail?-A. About as cheap; yes. HALIBUT AND HERRING. Q. Is there any halibut fishing up there within the 3-mile limit that would amount to anything?—A. I don't think there is a great deal. They did some fishing about the Isle of Anticosti and about St. Paul's Island, but the best halibut are caught on the Banks in very deep water. Q. They get a great many on the coast of Labrador nowadays, do they not? Do you know how far off shore?-A. I don't know much about that. Q. Do you know anything about the herring fishery up there?-A. Very few of our vessels fish for herring; I don't know of any. As a rule, the herring are all caught by the inhabitants on the shores there. By Senator FRYE: REFRIGERATOR PROCESS. Q. When you brought in your cargoes of fresh fish where did you sell them?-A. In Boston. Q. What did you get for cod?-A. We brought no cod; our vessels brought mackerel. Q. What did you get for them?-A. We got 7 cents apiece. It takes about 290 for a salt barrel, which brings the price somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 a barrel. Q. What do they do with the fresh mackerel in Boston?-A. They market them in Boston, New York, and the manufacturing towns, and I don't doubt but they ship them as far west as Chicago. Q. Is there any difficulty about shipping those fresh fish all over the country in refrigerator cars?—A. Oh, no, if they can get them below the freezing point; but in hot weather it is difficult to keep them enough below. Q. But they do send them all over the country in that way, do they not?-A. Yes, sir; they do in the winter when the weather is favorable. EFFECT OF DUTY ON CONSUMER. Q. Do you know anything about the retail prices of these mackerel?-A. We sold our first fare for 7 cents, and they were retailed for 25. Q. So far as you know, is the retail price affected at all by the prices you get?—A. I don't think it is. Q. Then, if there was no duty on fish, would it, in your opinion, make any difference in regard to the price which the consumer pays for his fish?-A. I don't see how it could. The supply is short anyhow this season, and perhaps will be for years. Q. Take it in an ordinary season, and would the duty make any difference in the price paid by the consumer?-A. I don't see how it could. The difficulty with the market for fresh fish is that we can't get anything for them hardly; we have sold them as low as 25 cents a barrel, and in the best condition, too; but this year they have been very scarce, and the price has been correspondingly high, and very few people could use them. We have taken all that could be had. By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Twenty-five cents a barrel would be how much apiece?-A. It would be considerably less than a cent apiece; it would be about seven or eight for a cent. Q. There are two or three hundred fish in a barrel, I suppose?-A. Yes, sir. Q. These fish that you got 7 cents apiece for, that were put up on these shelves that you have described, were they great and small, just as you took them out of the sea?-A. They ran very nearly all one size. Q. What grade would you call them by the numbers they have in the Boston market?-A. They were about the size of No. 1 mackerel. By Senator FRYE: PURSE SEINES. Q. You use the purse seine, do you not?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it not rather difficult and dangerous to use the purse seine within 3 miles of the Canadian shore line?-A. It is dangerous for the seine, but parties that are used to it and understand the tides can fish in quite shoal water. In other instances, however, parties who might be called experts lose their seines entirely. By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. How deep into the water do those purse seines go?-A. They take bottom at 130 to 140 feet. Q. From 20 to 25 fathoms?-A. Yes, sir. By Senator FRYE: Q. Do these purse seines close over a school of mackerel?-A. Oh, no, sir; it is just the same as a web of cloth. You take one end over and take the other end around, and it makes a circle around the edge of the fish; then it sets up edgewise, because one side is floated and the other sinks; the leaded side has a gathering string-a purse line-and that is drawn at both ends until they meet; then, after the circle is completed, it is pulled until the bottom is closed together and the whole seine is bowlshaped, with the fish in the bowl. COMPARATIVE COST OF FISHING BY AMERICANS AND CANADIANS. Q. What are the reasons why American fishermen can not compete with Canadians in this fishery business up there?-A. Those people up there do most of their fishing from shore; bezides being fishermen, they are usually farmers; their fishing is done with hooks, morning and evening, while during the middle of the day they attend to their crops. They take these little boats, that only cost from $10 to $15 apiece and carry three or four men, and go offshore and fish mornings and evenings. The fish up there don't bite in the middle of the day any better than they do in a brook or pond. They salt the fish that they catch in this way, and the business is carried on in that way all along the coast, except that in the spring they fish with gill nets. They have fished there for years with nets in much the same way I have described, and those fish, after being salted, are sent to our market. Q. Then their fish do not cost them so much as yours, do they?—A. Not so much. Q. How do their vessels compare with ours in cost?-A. I think they get their vessels up about 30 per cent cheaper than ours, but the other expenses they have are not so different from ours, only they can get their crews cheaper. Q. How much cheaper do they get their crews?-A. I think they can man their vessel for 60 per cent of what we can man ours for. Q. How about their living?-A. They don't live as well as our people. Our fishing people come in contact with those who live in manufacturing towns, and of course our fishing classes want to live as well as anybody else, and if they can't do it by fishing they want to do something else. BOUNTIES. Q. Do they not pay bounties?-A. I understand they do in some of the lower provinces, from that $5,500,000 that they got from us; I don't know just how much the bounty is. By Senator EDMUNDS: SHARES. Q. Are not the fishermen employed on their vessels paid on shares?-A. Similar to ours; in fact, they are the same men They engage in the same business here as boys, and grow up, and if they do not settle here they go home and get vessels there, and carry the business or in that way |