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fact one man who has been in the habit of coming here every fall with his collection of fish that he has caught, and which I sell for him, said to me last fall, “Mr. Russell, what am I going to do? I have got a big ice house full of ice, and what am I going to do if your fishermen can't come in and get it?” I said, “You will manage to sell it some way; they will get in.”

By Senator SaulsBURY: Q. I want to inquire whether if an American ship had the privilege of landing her fish to be transported by railroad through Canada to the United States she could not make a better catch in a whole season than she can now, when she has to bring her fish home herself?—A. The chances are that she might quadruple her catch. A vegsel can run in from the fishing grounds into Souris, the nearest harbor, within an hour and be alongside of a wharf, and in three hours more she can land the fare of mackerel she may have; perhaps it is 300 or 400 barrels. Three days afterwards those fish can be on the pier in Boston, and that vessel may not have been in harbor over three or four hours.

Q. What is the locality of the fishing ground you refer to?-A. Right off Prince Edwards Island, the northeast corner of it, and between there an, Cape Breton. The fish are plenty there; they are now moving that way at this season of the year, and according to reports in the last week they have been very plentiful.


Q. How are these fish caught?-A. Ky seines. Occasionally some of the vessels are fitted out this year with hooks and lines.

By Senator FRYE: Q. What proportion of your business is with Canada?-A. I think it is about half.


Q. Do you desire to make the report to which you have referred in your testimouy a part of your statement?-A. A gentleman came into my office to-day and said that some of the members of the committee here would like to have some of these reports.

Senator EDMUNDS. I think Mr. Jones gave us those.

The WITNESS. I heard Mr. Jones testify. I will leave these papers with the committee, anyway.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Was that table you have in your hand prepared by yourself?-A. No, sir; it was prepared by the secretary of the fish bureau; it is prepared every Friday, and this is what was sent to my office yesterday:

Q. That covers what period?—A. From the beginning of the fishing season up to yesterday.

The witness then submitted to the subcommittee, as part of his testimony, the following tabular statement:

BOSTON, October 1, 1886.

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CODFISH. The Witness. There is one other point: We receive from the Provinces from 500 to 1,000 barrels of codtish-a thousand may be rather high, though I don't know that it is every ten days from Newfoundland. They mostly go to New York. That is a variety of fish not made within the limits of the United States. There is scarcely any salt put on them. They are very dry and very rd, and are mostly used for ship's stores on long voyages, and for shipment to such places as Central America and Aspinwall.

By Senator FRYE: Q. Is there any special name for them?-A. They are called Newfoundland hardcured fish, and they do not come in competition with anything that is made in this country. I have just ordered some from Halifax. Those fish will cost the man I ordered them from $4.50 a quintal. We are selling these domestic fish all the way from 23 to 3); 3} for Georges and 23 for pickled Bank.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Would it not be possible to cure fish in the same way on our coast?—A. It would possible, but will be one or two generations before that is done. It is only because customers have got in the way of liking these green fish that they are not cured on our coast. That is all there is to it.

Q. What is the duty on that kind of fish?—A. The same as on the other kind, half a cent a pound.



There is one other point I would like to touch upon; it may be that you have had some information in regard to it at Provincetown. I think I am safe in saying that every year up to 1882, perhaps, we have exported codfish from Boston and Provincetown, mainly from Provincetown, to Halifax, showing that there has been a higher range of prices for codfish in the Provinces than there has been in the United States. That is a fact which you can easily prove by statistics, because you can find the clearances of fish mainly from Provincetown.

Q. How would the imposition of our duties affect that?—A. They impose the same duty.

Q. Yes, but when we export there we have to pay it.-A. Yes, but there was no duty then; that was under free trade, of course.

Q. There have been no such exportations since the treaty?-A. No, sir; I think 1882 was the last.

By Senator Frye: Q. They imposed duty before the Washington treaty terminated, did they not?A. There was a duty in the interim.

Q. That was in their original tariff act, was it not?-A. I think so. I think the duty they impose now is the same as ours.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Leaving the question of duty entirely out of view, how do you explain it, as a mere matter of business, that tish should be exported to the Provinces from Boston, precisely the same kind of fish that they catch and cure in the Provinces? Is it inerely because there happened to be, on account of their shipments and all that, a special order or want that they were not able to fill at that moment, or for what reason?-A. Probably the catch had not been so large as to enable them to supply all their demands.

Q. In short, their market was bare at that time?-A. Yes, they had not caught enough.


The British Provinces supply all the West India markets, probably every one of them, with the exception of Haiti and San Domingo, and that trade is with the United States.

Q. Nearly all the other markets are theirs?-A. We can send there with the same propriety that they can; it don't cost us any more; but they have had that business.

Q. Do you mean that British fish go into Jamaica, for instance, at just as high a rate of duty and charge of every kind as American fish?-A. I do. Not any higher.

Q. That is the way you understand it?-A. I know so. I have tried it in Jamaica, Barbadoes, Trinidad, and Demerara. Their duty is exactly the same on shipments whether from the Provinces or from the United States.

By Senator FRYE:
Q. In all of them there is a duty?-A. Yes, though it is very low in some places.

By Senator EDMUNDS:
Q. So that we, with our provincial neighbors, stand on exactly the same footing?—
A. Exactly the same footing; there is no difference.


Boston, Mass., Odober 2, 1886. EDWIN R. DE LONG sworn and examined.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Question. State your age, residence, and occupation.—Answer. I am nearly 52 years of age; reside in Boston; my business is commission business.

Q. In what?-A. In fish and general merchandise.

Q. Both salt and fresh fish?—A. Yes; largely, though, with salt fish; very little fresh fish.

Q. Are you engaged in the fishery trade as a vessel owner or anything of that sort?—A. No, sir; I am not.

Q. Who are your chief principals in your commission business? A. At this present time the fish I deal in come largely from the Provinces

Q. Your principals, then, are Canadian dealers, vessel owners, and so on?-A. Yes.


Q. State anything that you desire to the committee.-A. We are in favor of having free fish, and I do not consider that it would be any injury to our fisheries here. A large part of the fish that are brought here from the Provinces are cured differently from our methods. Their cod fish are what are called kench cured (dry cured), suitable for the West Indies trade. The fish cured in the United States are picklecured fish, and not suitable for export trade.

Q. That is to say, they are pickled in barrels or tubs aboard the vessel, and are brought here and taken out and dried?–A. They are kept in pickle until nearly the time of shipment, then taken out and given about three days' sun, which simply dries the surface. Those fish are then shipped. That one thing has done more to injure the salt-fish trade of New England than anything else that has ever happened to it, unless it is the fresh-fish trade.

Q. Is there any reason why our people can not dry them dry?--A. No reason whatever, only our fishermen pickle them, and give them about five pounds of salt instead of three. The bulk of them cured that way become sour and stinking before a great while.

Q. What is the object of pickling them in that way?-A. They want to sell as many pounds as they can.

Q. When the fish are caught by the provincial fishermen on the Banks they pickle thein there in the same way, do they not?-A. No, sir; they are dry cured. The provincial people take those fish out of the hold of a vessel without putting them in pickle, but the Americans pickle them.

Q. When they are first caught on the Banks they are treated in the same way by both?—A. I don't know of any other way they could treat them.

Q. But when they are carried ashore in the Provinces they are thoroughly dried?A. Most of them. There are a few pickled fish there. A few years ago Gloucester

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had all the fish. They wrote to my customers in the Provinces asking them to pickle cure there, and bring them to Gloucester instead of to Boston, and they would buy them; and there were a great many cargoes carried to Gloucester.

Q. So that the difference in the fish of the two countries is merely a difference in the treatment after they get ashore?--A. Largely; yes. The kench-cured fish, as they used to be treated fifty years ago in New England, were sweet and sound, and could be sent to the West Indies or anywhere; but by this new process they are not suitable to be exported. If they get quite dry, the first moist day that comes they will get wet; they take the moisture very quickly.


Boston formerly did a very large export husiness in fish; we supplied the West Indies very largely. But by changes of the law and by allowing provincial fish to come here in competition with our pickle cured fish we have largely lost our trade. When Mr. Benjamin F. Butler was a member of Congress he got a bill passed forbidding the packing of foreign fish in bond here. The fish were brought in bulk in the vessel and carried to storehouses, and previous to that time they had been packed in bond, put into packages, and exported to the West Indies. Mr. Butler got a bill through Congress forbidding that. The effect of that has been to drive most of the West India trade down to the Provinces. We have not had the benefit of it here.


Q. But that, if I understand you correctly, really results from the circumstance that the fish are not properly treated when they get here?-A. Our American catch. Only a few years ago Provincetown or Cape Cod used to kench cure a large amount of her fish. But a man told me recently that there probably would not be this year 2,000 quintals of kench-cured fish. Gloucester has kench cured her fish for many years. Some are kench cured in Maine yet, though they are going into pickle curing, as they get the same price for 5 pounds of pickle cured as for 3 pounds of kench cured. Many people don't know the difference, and servant girls really prefer pickle cured, because they are always soft and ready to pick easily, while dry, bard fish would be hard to get ready to cook.


Q. State anything else that you desire.-A. In my dealings with the Provinces I have been made acquainted with the nationality of our crews to some extent. We have a great many orders sent us from the Provinces. These American vessels leave America with a sufficient number of men to go to the Provinces, and there they ship new men, and then after the catch they land that part of the crew before returning home. Those men that are landed down in the Provinces send orders here on the American fishing houses for their shares of the proceeds of the catch, as they fish on shares largely. So I know that a large number of men in our vessels, both masters and sailors, are simply provincial people.

Q. How can the masters be so?-A. They take out papers to become American citizens, but whether they ever complete their citizenship I do not know. Some claim to bé natives of the United States when they are not. I have known a great many masters of vessels to make that claim when I knew that they came from the Provinces.


At the present time our fish are all pickle cured. There is a large export demand for fish to go to the West Indies, and we haven't got any.

Q. Why do they not take them out of pickle and dry them?-A. They would have to soak them all out again; there is so much salt in them that they can not dry them. After a fish is once pickled it is difficult to be dried properly. They claim that by soaking out the salt again it can be done, but I think they are never so good as the original kench-cured fish.


The WITNESS. Have our trade relations and the volume of trade anything to do with the subjects to be considered by your committee?

Senator EDMUNDS. Yes; everything that bears upon the general question.
The WITNESS. We ship during the year down there about $900,000 worth of goods.

Q. Of all kinds?-A. Of all kinds-manufactured goods, flour, beef, pork, lard, butter, crockery ware, fishing tackle, and fishing gear. There is no place in the

world that I know of where a vessel could be fitted out so cheaply as at Boston or Gloucester. The cod lines are made here, the only place in the world where they are made. I don't know of another place where they make cotton cod lines that are used by our fishermen. They formerly used hemp lines that came from Europe, but they are not used at all now. Their cotton duck and cordage are bought here, their beef is bought here entirely, and pork and four largely; also lard, and the oilcloth which the sailors wear, and their rubber boots; fishhooks, more or less; in fact, everything used aboard a vessel is bought here. We ship them ourselves.

Q. To be used by British vessels?--A. Yes, sir; entirely.

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I can give you some of my orders during this last spring.

Q. You can state them in a general way.-A. I take them alphabetically: Apples and vegetables, alcohol, fishermen's leather boots, ship bread, butter, beans, brushes, rubber boots, stove polish, coffee, candles, corn, chocolate, cotton duck, dry goods of all kinds, essences, flour, furniture, canned goods, groceries of various kinds, hardware, tinware, lanterns and the like, jugs, kerosene oil, mackerel lines, cod lines, cod hooks, sole leather, Seychelles and Manila cordage, molasses, nails of all kinds (oak nails and ordinary cut nails), oakum, naval stores, sails, pitch and tar, oars, pork, beef, lard, hams, linseed oil, paints of all kinds, copper paints (for copperpainting vessels), peppers, spices, hats, caps, oilcloth, sugar, what you call patent brass bushings for blocks, salt, tobacco (manufactured and unmanufactured), tea, tea caddies, trunks, tallow, all kinds of biscuits, crackers and such like, brooms, pails and wooden ware, lamps and glassware, crockery ware, dory boats, paper, and paper books. Those are about the leading things.


Q. You were speaking of canned goods. Are there any fish canned in Canada and imported into the United States?--A. Yes; in the provinces.

Q. What kinds?-A. Principally mackerel and lobsters; those are the two main articles.

Q. Do you operate in those things yourself?-A. Yes; we have some consignments of them, but that trade is very small with us.

Q. Are the processes of canning goods down there equal to ours?-A. The people there who can goods are mostly Americans who have started factories. I think you had a gentleman here yesterday or to-day, Mr. Pickett, who has a canning factory in Cape Breton. I suppose those men have their operatives from here, and I should suppose the work would be done in the same manner as it is done here.


We sell about $700,000 worth of goods where we receive perhaps $200,000. Q. Through your house in Canada?-A. Yes; we have sold about $1,100,000 worth of goods every year lately.

Q. What is the general rate that commission merchants get on their operations?
The WITNESS. The profits?
Senator EDMUNDS. The commissions generally charged.
A. Not far from 5 per cent on the average; sometimes we get less than that.

Q. Do you deal in American fish at all?–A. I have not recently. That was the first thing I did when I came to Boston. My first experience in the fishery business was fitting out Cape Cod fishermen, and I followed that for nearly eleven years.

Q. How long ago did you leave it?-A. I commenced in 1855.

Q. And continued down to 1866?-A. Yes, sir. I was originally in the shipchandlery and ship-store business; but after the war prices went so high that our American vessels did not do well, and I was obliged to seek other business. That is how I came to get into the provincial business.


Q. Is there anything else you wish to suggest?—A. I would like to speak of exports. Formerly, under the reciprocity trenty, many vessels would go to the provinces, carrying flour and other merchandise, amounting perhaps in bulk to 1,000 barrels. Those vessels were very similar to our State of Maine coasters; the captain and crew all had orders and each was ashore buying goods. The same thing is done to-day, more or less. So that our custom-house here has no correct record of the export of goods from here to the provinces.

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