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and also from Portland and along the coast of Maine; and then this year we have had cargoes of French fish cured on the island of St. Pierre.

Q. Do most of these codfish that you deal in come from those northeastern waters?
The WITNESS. You mean from the Nova Scotia waters?
Senator EDMUNDS. Yes; and the British Provinces.
A. We have a great many fish from Nova Scotia; but, as I said before, the bulk
of the fish we use are domestic fish.

Senator EDMUNDS. I am now speaking of salted fish.
The WITNESS. Well, I am speaking of salted fish.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. Do you know, from your information and your business, what proportion of the salted fish that you deal in are taken within the 3-mile limit?- A. That is a question that I can't answer; I do not know. One side claims one thing and the other another; I don't know what the truth really is.

PRICE TO THE CONSUMER.

Q. How has the price of fish from the retail dealer to the consumer been affected since the termination of the treaty?-A. At present it must be very much higher, because this year the mackerel, the principal fish that have been caught, have been very small in numbers. I was in Europe six weeks, and I do not believe that there were 500 barrels of mackerel caught on our shores all the time I was away.

Q. How does the price stand as compared with two years ago?-A. On codfish

Q. I am now asking about mackerel.-A. I should say that it must be very much higher, because the prices have more than doubled this year.

Q. What are the present prices of salted mackerel?—A. Salted mackerel would be rated somewhere in the neighborhood of $13 to $14 per barrel of 200 pounds.

Q. And what was the price of salted mackerel two years ago?-A. I should think somewhere in the neighborhood of $4 or $5, perhaps.

Q. Can you tell us what the retail price is now compared with two years ago? The WITNESS. You mean to the consumer?

Senator EDMUNDS. Yes. I go to my grocer and call for mackerel No. 1, or extra, or whatever you call it; can you tell me what I now pay for such?

A. I don't know; I could not say.

Q. Do you know what it was two years ago?-A. No, sir; I would not know what the retail grocer or fish dealer would get for his mackerel.

Q. Then you do not know how the changed condition of things affects the consumer himself, the man who buys his fish to eat?-A. As a matter of actual knowledge I have not bought, and so do not know. But I can see that if a retail dealer can not to-day buy mackerel from me under $15 that I was selling last year at $8, he must charge a higher price for it.

Q. How much of this rise in price, if any, do you think has been effected by the changed condition of things since the termination of the treaty?-A. That certainly must have had its effect; how much I do not know. You understand that this year our vessels have done little or nothing along our shores; there has been a dead falling off, and they have had to go away up the bay to get their mackerel, so that it has made a large shortage in the amount of the mackerel, and that has caused a very large increase in the price.

DUTY.

Q. Take the question of duty. When there is duty on salt fish who bears that duty? Do you and the people you deal with bear it or they who eat the mackerel, and do they bear it all, or what part of it?—A. The consumer must bear it all, Í should think.

Q. You think the producer of the fish does not bear any part of it?-A. If I get the fish I should say I have to charge my profit, and the man who buys from me has to charge his profit, and I should think it would all come upon the consumer.

Q. Upon the purehaser?–A. l'pon the purchaser and not upon the seller. In consequence, of course, we have not suffered, because we have our prices established according to the prices we pay.

EFFECT OF TIIE TERMINATION OF TIIE TREATY.

Q. When this treaty terminated you were dealing in imported salted fish?-A. Yes; and domestic.

Q. Did the prices instantly advance after that?-A. No; they did not advance. Of course there are other things that come in to influence, you know.

Q. What kinds of fish?–A. Cod fish, haddock, mackerel, herring, hake, halibut, and salmon--almost every variety of fish.

Q. Are all these kinds canned as well as cured with salt?—A. No, sir; the principal fish which are canned and canned here are fresh mackerel; fresh mackerel is about the only fish we get canned here. Of course, we can them in a great many different forms.

Q. For the domestic mackerel—that is, those taken in American waters or off American shores—what is the mackerel season, when your fish come in to be canned?-A. The vessels sail southward, generally along in March or April, for the fishing grounds, and they bring them in in the early part of the season, generally to New York and sometimes to Philadelphia.

Q. What time does the fishing season begin that brings fresh mackerel here to you to be canned?-A. Some seasons we have mackerel brought from New York along in April, I should think.

Q. Unladen at New York and shipped here?-A. Yes; and then as the fish come farther along on our coast we get them in Boston direct.

Q. What is about the usual size of mackerel that are canned?-A. Generally the small mackerel, mackerel that would be classed as medium No. 3.

Q. How long are they?-A. From 10 to 11 inches, perhaps.

Q. And that is the chief canned fish?—A. That is small mackerel. Of course, we do can other mackerel when they are selling at a price that will enable us to do so. Last year when mackerel were so plentiful on our coast we canned larger mackerel.

Q. Do you can them yourselves?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you put up cargoes or catches from what may be called British waters, off the North American coast?—A. You know we are obliged to have fish fresh, so that we are dependent upon near-by places of getting fish in order to really have them fresh enough. For canning purposes we have to have them fresh, although now that they have this steamer they can bring fish from the British waters in time.

Q. By this steamer” you mean the Novelty?--A. Yes; there have been fresh fish canned this year that have come from Nova Scotia.

Q. But all the canned fish of the mackerel kind are the small fish, are they not?A. Yes, generally, you can say that, with some exceptions.

FREE FISH.

Q. Then how does the question of free Canadian fresh fish affect your interests or the interests of those with whom you deal?-A. It may affect us somewhat in our sale of these American sardines. We furnish capital to some of these factories along the coast of Maine, and take mortgages on them.

Q. But I am now on the mackerel question.-A. On the mackerel question, I should not think the matter of free fish would affect us very much.

SARDINES.

Q. And what do you say about the sardine business?—A. The factories engaged in the sardine business, you understand, are up along the coast of Maine, at Eastport, Jonesport, and along in that section. Those fish come to us already canned. "We simply act as agents for the people down there, and sell on commission.

Q. And they are always the same herring?-A. Yes; the small herring.

Q. Never the small menhaden or other kinds of fish?-A. No, sir; I understand not.

Q. How many factories do you own along the coast of Maine or elsewhere for sardines?-A. You go down to Eastport and they seem to be innumerable; I don't know actually how many there are, but every wharf bas its factory. Perhaps Mr. Frye is better posted on that subject. There are a great many factories that are putting up these herring or sardines.

By Senator FRYE: Q. Farther and farther east?-A. Yes; and this way. Of course there are other factories all along the Maine coast.

SALT FISH.

By Senator EDMUNDS:
Q. Do you deal in all kinds of salt fish?-A. Yes.

Q. Where do your salted cod usually come from?-A. What we call pickle-salted come from Provincetown. I suppose you understand the distinction between drysalted and pickle-salted; they are all cured. The dry-salted come from Gloucester,

and also from Portland and along the coast of Maine; and then this year we have had cargoes of French fish cured on the island of St. Pierre.

Q. Do most of these codfish that you deal in come from those northeastern waters?
The WITNESS. You mean from the Nova Scotia waters?
Senator EDMUNDS. Yes; and the British Provinces.
A. We have a great many fish from Nova Scotia; but, as I said before, the bulk
of the fish we use are domestic fish.

Senator EDMUNDS. I am now speaking of salted fish.
The WITNESS. Well, I am speaking of salted fish.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. Do you know, from your information and your business, what proportion of the salted fish that you deal in are taken within the 3-mile limit?-A. That is a question that I can't answer; I do not know. One side claims one thing and the other another; I don't know what the truth really is.

PRICE TO THE CONSUMER.

Q. How has the price of fish from the retail dealer to the consumer been affected since the termination of the treaty?-A. At present it must be very much higher, because this year the mackerel, the principal fish that have been caught, have been very small in numbers. I was in Europe six weeks, and I do not believe that there were 500 barrels of mackerel caught on our shores all the time I was away.

Q. How does the price stand as compared with two years ago?-A. On codfishQ. I am now asking about mackerel.-A. I should say that it must be very much higher, because the prices have more than doubled this year.

Q. What are the present prices of salted mackerel?—A. Salted mackerel would be rated somewhere in the neighborhood of $13 to $14 per barrel of 200 pounds.

Q. And what was the price of salted mackerel two years ago?-A. I should think somewhere in the neighborhood of $4 or $5, perhaps.

Q. Can you tell us what the retail price is now compared with two years ago? The WITNESS. You mean to the consumer?

Senator EDMUNDS. Yes. I go to my grocer and call for mackerel No. 1, or extra, or whatever you call it; can you tell me what I now pay for such?

A. I don't know; I could not say.

Q. Do you know what it was two years ago?-A. No, sir; I would not know what the retail grocer or fish dealer would get for his mackerel.

Q. Then you do not know how the changed condition of things affects the consumer himself, the man who buys his fish to eat?-A. As a matter of actual knowledge I have not bought, and so do not know. But I can see that if a retail dealer can not to-day buy mackerel from me under $15 that I was selling last year at $8, he must charge a higher price for it.

Q. How much of this rise in price, if any, do you think has been effected by the changed condition of things since the termination of the treaty?-A. That certainly must have had its effect; how much I do not know. You understand that this year our vessels have done little or nothing along our shores; there has been a dead falling off, and they have had to go away up the bay to get their mackerel, so that it has made a large shortage in the amount of the mackerel, and that has caused a very large increase in the price.

DUTY.

Q. Take the question of duty. When there is duty on salt fish who bears that duty? Do you and the people you deal with bear it or they who eat the mackerel, and do they bear it all, or what part of it?—A. The consumer must bear it all, Í should think.

Q. You think the producer of fish does not any part of it?-A. If I get the fish I should say Î have to charge my profit, and the man who buys from me has to charge his profit, and I should think it would all come upon the consumer.

Q. Upon the purchaser?-A. Upon the purchaser and not upon the seller. In consequence, of course, we have not suffered, because we have our prices established according to the prices we pay.

EFFECT OF THE TERMINATION OF TIIE TREATY.

Q. When this treaty terminated you were dealing in imported salted fish?—A. Yes; and domestic.

Q. Did the prices instantly advance after that?-A. No; they did not advance. Of course there are other things that come in to influence, you know.

Q. I understand that, but I want the fact.—A. The fact is that there was no advance; there may have been in some kinds of fish, but in general there was not, I think.

Q. Immediately after the 1st of July you paid precisely the same price that you did before?-A. I think there was a large quantity of codtish caught

Q. I am not on the reasoning about it; I want the fact.-A. I was trying to think of the different articles, so as to answer your question. I think that, on account of other things, the prices did not advance.

Q. Who bore the difference of duty that was paid in that case?-A. I don't think the fish came; if they had come the parties in Nova Scotia would have had to bear it. Of course, we know that in the long run it must have affected the price, but in the main it was not affected, as a matter of fact.

Q. In the long run, of course, it affects some. What we want to get at from your knowledge is which side of the line was affected—whether it was the Canadian catcher and curer of fish, or whether it was the American purchaser and consumerand one point in that would be to know whether, when the duty was put on on the 1st day of July, when the day before the price of cured codfish was so much, the wholesale price in your market advanced or receded, or what happened.-A. I think, as a matter of fact, that it did not advance because of the large stock of fish that was caught here, and those people could not send their fish here in competition unless they stood the duty, and of course they would drop out of the business if they could not.

Q. Or else they would reduce their prices and make less profits?-A. They could not afford to do that. They would have to get out of the business. But these people who desire protection certainly would feel that they would be protected with the duty on, and in the long run it must be that the consumer must pay for it. The thing would have to regulate itself in the end.

DUTY. Q. What we are trying to find out is where, so far as you can understand it, the actual burden of the impost duty falls in this case. For ten years or so fish came in free, and now for a year and a little over they have not come in free, and somebody has had to pay the duty, and the question is whether it was the catcher of the fish and the man who cured and dried it, barreled it, and shipped it, or whether it was you, the wholesale dealer, who purchased it, and whether when you purchased it you charged the duty to the retail dealer, and so on down to the consumer, or made Iess profits.-A. Of course it does not come upon us, because we sell according to what we pay; so it does not come upon us. Where there is a large stock-as, for instance, of codfish at the present timethe price is not affected at present by the duty, because there is a large catch of codfish here on hand, and the price does not advance on the codfish, because there is so much of it caught.

Q. If the price does not advance, then the Canadian--and I take that term for a short one-is out of pocket 50 cents a hundred, or whatever the duty is?—A. Practically they are not sending their codfish here.

Q. There has been no importation since the 1st of July, 1885?-A. It will not do to say no importation, but the present price is so low that the Canadians have been sending only special kinds of fish, which are like what we call shore fish. The Nova Scotia shore fish are better-fed fish than those we get here, a better class of fish, and will bring a higher price. Those are the fish we have been buying from Nova Scotia. But an ordinary Bank fish, such as we get from Provincetown, will not bring so good a price.

Q. Did the prices which you paid on these previous to the 1st of July, 1885, advance by the amount of the duty?-A. I should think so.

Q. You being a dealer, do you not know?-A. I think so. If I had my book before me I could tell just exactly what I did pay last year, but I do not remember

now.

STATEMENT OF PRICES OF IMPORTED FISH.

Q. Will you be kind enough to send to us by mail, to save you any further trouble, a statement which shall show the prices you paid for each kind, by itself, of imported salt fish, between July 1, 1884, and July 1, 1885; and, secondly, on exactly the same kind of fish since the 1st of July, 18857-A. Yes.

Q. During those years have your newspapers given daily or weekly the wholesale prices of imported fish?-A. Yes; I suppose they professed to do that. But I think you could depend better on the Boston Fish Bureau of Statistics for information in regard to prices, as shown in their annual reports.

Q. Are you a member of that bureau?-A. Yes.
Q. Could you send us those reports?-A. Yes.

RECIPROCITY.

The WITNESS. Before I leave the stand I would like to state that I want reciprocity.

Q. State why you want reciprocity, what effect you think it will have upon the country, and what you mean by it; whether reciprocity in everything, or only in fish. State in your own way.-A. I should say on fish. I think the country ought to get cheap fish, and my idea, as I have already expressed, is that the consumer must pay for the duty eventually. I believe that fish are for the poorer classes. Why, during the last two or three years, during the business depression, we have had a good business, because the fish go to the poorer classes, and I think those poorer classes have to pay the duty.

SENDING FISH TO CANADA.

We have had a trade with Canada, sending our fish into Canada from Boston, but that trade has all gone, as you may say:

Q. Where were those fish caught?-A. They were caught in our own waters; they were principally domestic fish that we sent into Canada.

Q. What is the theory of that? Why is it that weimport Canadian fish and also send to them American fish? They are all the same kind; cod, mackerel, and so on.-A. We put them up in attractive shapes. We put them into boxes under attractive brands and in shapes that make them attractive to those people. They do not know how to do it down there. They are getting on to it lately. Down there in Nova Scotia they are now supplying Montreal, Toronto, Hamilton, Brockville, and towns all through Canada. These people have come up here and got into our factories and discovered our methods, and have gone back there and are now supplying their own markets with fish put up somewhat after our methods. At the same time I understand that the people in Montreal are not satisfied.

RECIPROCITY.

Q. Go on with what you were stating about the whole reciprocity question as it appears to you.-A. It seems, as I stated, that the consumer would have to pay the duties on the fish. I believe that these people have a right to ask for protection under the circumstances, because they have to pay protection prices for things that enter into the construction of their vessels. If I were in their place I suppose I should feel

Ι the same way.

But I think this is a question with reference to which we are liable to get into trouble with a friendly power. It seems to me some other way ought to be sought for protection, which would still allow us to have reciprocity. Of course, as far as we are concerned in Boston, it must be of advantage to us, because we are more distributers of fish than we are producers; that is, we do not so much fit out vessels in Boston.

Q. The larger the source of supply you have, the better it is for your business?A. Yes.

EARLY CATCH OF MACKEREL.

By Senator SAULSBURY: Q. You spoke of canning mackerel. What is the effect of the early catching of fish down the coast? How does it affect the fish trade generally?-A. I think that in ordinary seasons it would be better for them not to go south to catch mackerel. In the first place, early in the season they are poor; it is their spawning season. There is always a demand, however, for the poorest fish; and of course the country gets the poorest fish in that way, because of the fact that they want the cheapest thing they can get. If they did not fish south early in the season, then when the mackerel come on northward they would be of better quality and fatter.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. And more of them, I suppose?-A. I don't know that there would be more.

Q. Would there not be more if none were caught in the spring?-A. Yes. In that way you may say more of them, and the fish that would be caught and inspected would be a better class of fish, and of course the country would have the benefit of consuming better fish. If they could not get poor fish they would take these finer brands and pay the price for them, and that would create a better demand. The consumer would like a better class of fish more; he would be better pleased with the taste and quality, and he would buy more, and there would be more used, it seems to me. I think that would be an advantage.

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