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MILITARY PROCUREMENT FOR FISCAL YEAR 1973

MANPOWER AUTHORIZATION

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1972

U.S. SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES,

Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 2:30 p.m., in room 212, Old Senate Office Building, Hon. John C. Stennis (chairman):

Present: Senators Stennis (presiding), Byrd, Jr., of Virginia, and Thurmond.

Also present: T. Edward Braswell, Jr., chief counsel and staff director; John T. Ticer, chief clerk; R. James Woolsey, general counsel; L. R. Garcia, John A. Goldsmith, C. J. Conneely, Edward B. Kenney, professional staff members; and Ben Gilleas, director of investigations, Preparedness Investigating Subcommittee.

The CHAIRMAN. Our committee will please come to order.

I believe we finished that second round of questions when we recessed; is that right, Senator?

Senator BYRD. We finished up to that point; yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Had you finished your second questioning series?

Senator BYRD. I finished my second period and yielded to Senator Thurmond.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Thurmond, I call on you.

Senator THURMOND. I have propounded the questions I had. I dictated some more and they are being typed, but let us go ahead and we will come back to the second and he can answer them for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, Senator Thurmond's questions as he may wish.

Senator THURMOND. If we have time we will propound them and, if not, he can answer them for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. He will answer them for the record unless otherwise asked.

Mr. Secretary, I asked some questions this morning, not going into these command structures and all. Senator Thurmond touched on that some. I want to go back over a certain number of figures here, just a few.

I would like to thank you for the material that you sent over to the committee, it is a long way beyond anything we have had time to do before.

ADDITIONAL MEN REQUESTED You have everything here in the statement, but the study material indicates that the 121,000 men requested for command is in addition to the men requested for headquarters, at the division and corps level

MILITARY PROCUREMENT FOR FISCAL YEAR 1973

MANPOWER AUTHORIZATION

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1972

U.S. SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES,

Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 2:30 p.m., in room 212, Old Senate Office Building, Hon. John C. Stennis (chairman).

Present: Senators Stennis (presiding), Byrd, Jr., of Virginia, and Thurmond.

Also present: T. Edward Braswell, Jr., chief counsel and staff director; John T. Ticer, chief clerk; R. James Woolsey, general counsel; L. R. Garcia, John A. Goldsmith, C. J. Conneely, Edward B. Kenney, professional staff members; and Ben Gilleas, director of investigations, Preparedness Investigating Subcommittee.

The CHAIRMAN. Our committee will please come to order.

I believe we finished that second round of questions when we recessed; is that right, Senator?

Senator BYRD. We finished up to that point; yes. The CHAIRMAN. Had you finished your second questioning series? Senator BYRD. I finished my second period and yielded to Senator Thurmond.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Thurmond, I call on you.

Senator THURMOND. I have propounded the questions I had. I dictated some more and they are being typed, but let us go ahead and we will come back to the second and he can answer them for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, Senator Thurmond's questions as he may wish.

Senator THURMOND. If we have time we will propound them and, if not, he can answer them for the record.

The CHAIRMAN. He will answer them for the record unless otherwise asked.

Mr. Secretary, I asked some questions this morning, not going into these command structures and all. Senator Thurmond touched on that some. I want to go back over a certain number of figures here, just a few.

I would like to thank you for the material that you sent over to the committee, it is a long way beyond anything we have had time to do before.

ADDITIONAL MEN REQUESTED You have everything here in the statement, but the study material indicates that the 121,000 men requested for command is in addition to the men requested for headquarters, at the division and corps level in the Army, and similar levels in the other services. This material also indicates that there are 58,000 men in these lower level headquarters, in addition to the 121,000 that I mentioned, for total of 179,000 men in headquarters and headquarters support of all kinds.

We have enough men, it seems, in these headquarters to man more than 11 full infantry divisions.

Is it your position that this number of people is actually required for these military headquarters? Do you have a personal knowledge of that and is that your position here?

STATEMENT OF HON. ROGER T. KELLEY, ASSISTANT SECRETARY

OF DEFENSE FOR MANPOWER AND RESERVE AFFAIRS, ACCOMPANIED BY GEORGE A. DAOUST, JR., DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR MANPOWER RESEARCH AND UTILIZATION, OASD (M. & R.A.); MAJ. GEN. LEO A. BENADE, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR MILITARY PERSONNEL POLICY, OASD (M. & R.A.); FRANCIS J. SULLIVAN, DIRECTOR, MANPOWER REQUIREMENTS, OASD (SA); CARL DETWYLER, DIRECTOR FOR MILITARY PERSONNEL, OFFICE OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (COMPTROLLER); CHARLES BREWER, DIRECTOR FOR ADMINISTRATIVE SERVICES, OFFICE OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR DEFENSE (COMPTROLLER), JONAS M. PLATT, DIRECTOR, MANPOWER UTILIZATION, OASD (M. & R.A.); MAJ. GEN. W. D. CRITTENBERGER, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR PLANS AND POLICY, J-5 (INTERNATIONAL NEGOTIATIONS), OJCS; ROBERT E. MORRISON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR INTELLIGENCE; LT. GEN. WILLIAM E. DE PUY, ASSISTANT VICE CHIEF OF STAFF, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY; REAR ADM. JOHN G. FINNERAN, ASSISTANT CHIEF OF NAVAL PERSONNEL FOR PLANS AND PROGRAMS, USN; MAJ. GEN. E. B. WHEELER, ASSISTANT CHIEF OF STAFF-G-1, U.S. MARINE CORPS; AND MAJ. GEN. WILLIAM W. BERG, DIRECTOR, MANPOWER AND ORGANIZATION, DCS/P. & R., U.S. AIR FORCE-Resumed

EXPLANATION OF DISTRIBUTION OF PERSONNEL

Mr. KELLEY. Mr. Chairman, I would not represent the viewpoint that we cannot effect efficiencies in our headquarters as well as other units. But it seems to me the most logical way to address your question is to have each of the services explain how their total people are distributed, in the case of the Army, for example, starting with a 13division active force requirement and the various headquarters and staff deployments, how we account for the 869,000 people projected for the Army in fiscal 1973.

I think we should do that service by service and in the backdrop of that explanation I think you and we will be better able to judge whether there are excesses in the headquarters structure.

The CHAIRMAN. We are going to hear that, I assume, from them. I assume you have already heard?

Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir; I have.

The CHAIRMAN. We cannot get to but one witness at a time. We need the opinion here of a civilian official in a position of high responsibility, and you are the manMr. KELLEY. All right, sir. The CHAIRMAN (continuing). That we look to primarily. Mr. KELLEY. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you represent to this committee that your hard belief and recommendation is that that number is required in these positions for our military departments?

OVERSTAFFING NOT UNIQUE

Mr. KELLEY. I think it is consistent with the way organizations are manned, but it is my opinion that the military services as well as the civilian components of defense as well as administration organizations outside of defense tend to be overmanned in the command and headquarters structure. So I cannot say to you that, in my opinion, the armed forces cannot do with fewer people in the headquarters and command structure. I think they can, but I think the disability from which they suffer is a typical disability and not one that is unique to the Armed Forces.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean not unique to the armed forces?

Mr. KELLEY. I mean, there is a general tendency in organization life to overstaff on the side of headquarters and command and management structure. I think the Armed Forces reflect that just as other organizations do.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean, in civilian life?
Mr. KELLEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If it is done there, it seems to me it is an error, and there is no use for the military to follow that example.

Mr. KELLEY. I am not condoning it, Mr. Chairman. I am just answering your question as frankly as I can.

FEWER MEN NEEDED ?

The CHAIRMAN. If that is the situation, it is up to us to try to turn it around some, because, as I have said before, we are taxing little people barely making a living to pay this enormous bill every year for Federal expenditure. We do not feel like saying to them that we allowed more than was actually needed. I just do not know, as I said this morning, how much work you get out of civilian employees. I am not picking on any individual. You may have men above the average. But we have got to get down into this thing and get somebody digging on it. So, your answer is, and I certainly do not want to misunderstand you, you personally think they can do with fewer men in these positions ?

Mr. KELLEY. I personally think also that the relative efficiency of the Armed Forces as reflected in the number of people who are in command and headquarters positions compares favorably with other organizations.

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