erally; and if you desire, while you are here, to touch upon any particular items in the estimates, we shall be very glad to hear you.

STATEMENTS OF HON. HUBERT WORK, SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR, AND MR. EDWARD C. FINNEY, FIRST ASSISTANT SECRETARY

Secretary WORK. Mr. Chairman, will you allow me first to express my appreciation of your cordial remarks. I appreciate it very much, and I can say to you for our principal officers, the bureau chiefs, the directors of bureaus, the chief clerk, and the more responsible officers, that their attitude toward the Secretary, toward your committee, and toward the Government is absolutely loyal and good. They have cooperated with me conscientiously and have been very obliging.

The department is doing its work without friction and with cheerful cooperation between bureaus where the activities touch. Directors and commissioners of bureaus are conscientious in their efforts to do effective work within the strictest economy. Our appropriations for the fiscal year 1925 were $290,493,724.06, or a saving of $35,398,353.95 over the previous year. We are asking for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1926, $267,785.596.17, or $22,688,127.89 less than the previous year.

Mr. CRAMTON. May I ask, Mr. Secretary, are those figures the annual appropriations, or does it include the indefinite and permanent appropriations?

Secretary WORK. This includes our request from the Director of the Budget, all told.

Reclassification has increased our expenditures approximately $1,450,000 in Washington. Because of it we have a few current, mid-year deficits which will be absorbed by the end of the fiscal year. As I recall it, that only applies to two bureaus, but in order to adjust ourselves to the reclassification and those increased expenditures, we had to reduce help a little. These deficits, I am satisfied, will disappear before the end of the year. We have not had very much time to make this readjustment since the reclassification.

We are living within our allowance, by reducing the number of employees and curtailing new development work, particularly of a scientific nature.

SURVEY OF BUREAUS

Surveys of bureaus under the direction of their chiefs were continued through the year to much purpose. The Commissioner of Patents is now directing an intensive study of his bureau with the aid of a committee of outstanding men, selected for us by different patent associations of the country. I anticipate far-reaching improvements under his direction.

The General Land Office is completing a report on its reorganization.

A report on the Alaska Railroad is en route to Washington, prepared by Noel W. Smith, of the Pennsylvania Railroad, acting since August 1 last as a special assistant to the Secretary of the Interior for this purpose.

Mr. CRAMTON. May I ask if the report as to the reorganization of the Land Office is to be presented early?

Secretary WORK. Very soon, I hope. It is not matured yet, but it will be ready for you certainly this calendar year.

What I have to say deals more particularly with the Secretary's office, of course, because the different bureaus have their reports in detail, and I will only mention them incidentally in passing.

The Secretary's office in the department has organized its little inspectors' division of four trained men at a salary expenditure of $16,000 instead of eight men and women costing $20,000. This division is instructed to work under the direction of bureau chiefs and reports through them to the Secretary. Their duties are coordinating and economic, rather than investigative in an offensive sense. It has saved to the Government many times its cost.

CURTAILMENT OF PUBLICATIONS

Attention has been devoted to curtailing unnecessary departmental publications and reducing the size of editions. Through a committee on publications, which I appointed more than a year ago, we have turned over to the Superintendent of Documents 1,071,186 surplus publications for sale and disposition. Future accumulations are being avoided by careful scrutiny of the fields of distribution and editions are now reduced to the minimum. This results in the more economical use of the printing fund. It explains how we have been able to continue the work of the publishing bureaus of the department without serious handicap, despite reduced appropriations for printing.

Mr. CRAMTON. Do you mind an interruption, Mr. Secretary?
Secretary WORK. No.

Mr. CRAMTON. In connection with that, do you occasionally observe that a change of law might be desirable as to distribution of documents gratis which perhaps you may think ought only to be sold? I recall, for instance, the report on superpower development of the northeast, which was a very elaborate book. It was of very great importance to those who were interested in it and one in which no person interested would at all mind paying for. But, under the law, the department, I suppose, was obliged to make some free distribution of it.

Using that as an illustration, when the department encounters, or in its study of this problem finds the law ought to be changed, I suppose that is a work of the Joint Committee on Printing, is it not? Secretary WORK. Yes; it would have to go to them first. Mr. CRAMTON. It would be brought to their attention?

Secretary WORK. Our operations in this direction have been in connection with the Committee on Printing, to some extent; that is, we advise with them. We found that publications had accumulated with the Public Printer until he began to protest about the room occupied. There had been quite an accumulation there of documents which were uncalled for. There seemed to be no demand for them or, at least, a very limited demand. That was really what suggested our looking into this in the beginning, to see if we could not curtail or control the publications from the department which, for lack of foresight, perhaps, had been ordered printed.

This committee is serving a very useful purpose, I think. At least, we have eliminated the number stated. Some of them were expensive books; a great many of them were only leaflets.

A committee on forms has been appointed by each bureau officer in the department, and each bureau committee is represented by its chairman on a central committee on forms. In the few months that these committees have been at work more than 500 duplicate and obsolete forms have been discontinued and many others revised and standardized. I anticipate considerable saving in the future through these committees, which are cooperating with similar activities in the Bureau of the Budget and General Accounting Office.

DETAILED EMPLOYEES TO SECRETARY'S OFFICE

(See pp. 12, 15)

Since July 1, we have taken over on the Secretary's roll six detailed positions from other bureaus amounting to $13,200, which were not covered by estimates for the Secretary's office, and have taken care of an increase of $2,740 on account of higher allocations by the Personnel Classification Board, making a total increase of $15,940 on the Secretary's roll.

Mr. CRAMTON. Let me understand that, Mr. Secretary. You mean that certain employees who were formerly paid out of other appropriations are now paid out of the appropriation of the Secretary's office.

Secretary WORK. That is right; they were working in the Secretary's office, and paid from other appropriations.

Mr CRAMTON. They are still paid from other appropriations? Secretary WORK. Not now; they were. That was a method of administration that did not appeal to me as sound. Every branch of the department should stand on its own appropriation. But I understand we are permitted to do this in an emergency, where the vork may be better handled; that is, to allow one employee to serve in another bureau, but continue to be paid from the bureau from which he came.

Mr. CRAMTON. As I understand it, the estimates of the Secretary's ofice for an increase of 23 in the personnel above the number-I was going to say estimated for last year, but very possibly I am wong in that. It may be that 23 is an increase over the number you now have at work, but that number is greater than the number estinated for last year. That may be the situation.

Scretary WORK. These people have been detailed and at work in the Secretary's office for some time. We have merely taken them over on the Secretary's roll.

MI CRAMTON. What I especially want to bring out clearly is that the number of employees you just spoke of in you statement who had ben performing work in the office and were formerly paid out of other appropriations were this year being paid out of your own. What! want to make clear is the number of them.

Secrtary WORK. I can probably clear that. For the fiscal year 1924, we had 153 statutory places on the Secretary's roll, while for the fiscl year 1924 we will have only 138 places, eliminating the detailed positions taken over and the 6 telephone operators now provided for by direct appropriation.

That, erhaps, answers your question?

Mr. CRAMTON. Yes.

Secretary WORK. Beyond this, I have nothing to add, unless you desire to ask some questions. As I stated before, the details are set up from the different bureaus pretty fully, I think, and my annual report is now in the hands of the printer. My letter of transmission touches on the high points of the service of the different bureaus during the year.

GOVERNMENT FUEL YARDS

(See p. 92)

Mr. CRAMTON. Of course, I would not want to detain you to discuss the details. Perhaps there are two or three matters of policy in the department upon which I should like to question you very briefly. I think perhaps we ough to complete our record as to the Government's fuel yard under the Bureau of Mines. As I recall, last year when we were in hearings, an investigation was being carried on by you, or under your direction, with reference to the feasibility of that activity and the propriety of its continuance. I understand that investigation was completed and you rendered a decision in the matter.

Secretary WORK. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. We might have a reference to that here, perhaps. Secretary WORK. We went into that very thoroughly. We consulted with the National Coal Dealers Association. Our conclusions were that we could not change the previous procedure with any advantage to the Government, and we are continuing as before, hav ing decided that it really was impracticable. They could not show a reduction that seemed to warrant the amortization of the property. It would amortize itself from want of use. That is, it would go to wreck, and there was no provision and no suggestion made wherely we could protect ourselves against that loss to property. The saving to the Government and to the consumer was so little as to be negigible, we thought, and they would not consider supplying to individual Government employees at all, besides the departments.

We concluded that it was impracticable and we are proceeding under the law and under the old methods. We made a very exhaustive research and I am convinced that it was not wise to undertake it. It would have left the Government in the position, after a few years, of being perhaps at the mercy of retail coal dealers, which I did not think was a good business policy. We buy 250,000 tons annually for Government use. We will save over last year $50,000, due to decreased cost rather than to good management.

RECLAMATION PROJECTS IN PENDING DEFICIENCY APPROPRIATION BILI

Mr. CRAMTON. The situation with reference to reclamation is somewhat involved for the consideration of this committee, by reason of what I might call the pendency of the deficiency appropriation bill, which was agreed to in conference in the last session of Congress, but which conference report was not adopted in the Senat. So it is in that situation of being between Heaven and earth-a good ways from Heaven, I think-but by reason of the fact that that bill contains a number of items for the Reclamation Service, if that bill is to become law, it has quite an effect upon the reclamation fund. If

it is not to become law, then different action would be required in the framing of this bill.

I have not refreshed my recollection as to details, Mr. Secretary, in connection with that. I have not looked at it since last June. But it is my general recollection that that deficiency bill carried several authorizations, several appropriations for the beginning of new projects. That is to say, it in effect designated certain new projects and made appropriations for the beginning of construction. Then it went further and included considerable legislation that will have a very far-reaching effect upon the reclamation situation. If I am correct, the items that were authorized seem to be the North Platte irrigation project in connection with the Guernsey Reservoir, $800,000; the Salt Lake Basin project, $375,000; the Owyhee project $315,000; the Yakima project, in connection with the Kittitas unit, $375,000.

It is not my desire now to go into those particular items, but it has occurred to me that very possibly you might give some expression with reference to what the effect will be upon any well thoughtout plan of administration of the Reclamation Service if this program goes through, some of the items which I have mentioned never having been recommended either by your department or the Budget.

Of course, I do not want to embarrass the Secretary at all, but it is a matter of very great importance. The bill has passed out of the jurisdiction of the House and I am simply bringing the matter up at this time so that you can give our committee any advice or information that you desire that might be a guide to us in the consideration of such items as are contained in the estimates. I have not yet seen the estimates.

Secretary WORK. Our department has been just as much embarrassed by the failure of that bill to pass as your committee can expect to be. As to our policy, that is set up in the report of the advisory committee, now before Congress, approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Speaking for myself, I hope Congress will approve a policy for the application of water to our arid lands, to produce food for an increasing population. It will be a slow process at best but should be intelligently begun.

Mr. CRAMTON. I would not want to be misunderstood. My embarrassment is not from its failure to pass but from my fear that it will pass eventually.

Mr. FINNEY. I think the Secretary is referring to the general reclamation bill.

Secretary WORK. "The fact finders bill." We have proceeded as far as we could under the provisions of that bill. It was recommended by us to Congress and our operations this summer, which have been very limited for want of funds and because of the uncertainty have been prosecuted in that same general direction.

Mr. CRAMTON. I do not want to inconvenience you in your statement, but as I understand the legislation which was added to this deficiency bill with reference to reclamation purported to be an effort to meet the report of the fact finders commission. It purports to be legislation in response to that, but is it not true that as a matter of fact it is in some very important respects absolutely contrary to the report of the fact finders commission?