Reclamation fund accretions, amounts to be paid by water users as construction, and amounts repaid as construction to June 30, 1924-Continued

106, 990, 339. 17 18, 909, 777. 16 125, 900, 116. 33 151, 185, 494. 00 17, 275, 117.00

Other reclamation fund items not allocated to States' Federal power licenses.

Advances from General Treasury (bond loan) not repaid...

4, 911. 88

16, 000, 000. 00

141, 905, 028. 21

550, 347. 58 1, 000, 000. 00 2,759, 890. 98 359, 479. 65

146, 574, 746. 42

Interstate projects: Figures roughly divided between States in accordance with areas benefited, not according to physical location of works,

PROJECTS IN SECOND DEFICIENCY BILL

Mr. CRAMTON. You estimate that there will be a balance on the first of next July of $6,110,000. What does that contemplate as to the expenditures provided for in the pending deficiency appropriation bill? Is that estimate on the basis of that money being expended or is it without reference to that?

Doctor MEAD. Those are actual appropriations.

Mr. CRAMTON. What was the total provided in that?

Mr. BEADLE. In the deficiency bill?

Mr. CRAMTON. Yes.

Mr. BEADLE. It is rather difficult to say. The bill is not complete and it varies in different stages.

Mr. CRAMTON. The present condition is what I want. There is for the North Platte project, the Guernsey Reservoir, $800,000; Salt Lake Basin project, $375,000; Owyhee irrigation project, $315.000; Yakima project, $375,000.

Doctor MEAD. There are some other items; $125,000 for cooperative investigations. Altogether it is $2,031,500.

Mr. CRAMTON. Is that $125,000 for cooperative investigations -out of the reclamation fund or out of the Treasury?

Doctor MEAD. That is out of the Treasury.

Mr. CRAMTON. Then we do not want to confuse it.

Doctor MEAD, The item of $20,000 is also out of the Treasury. Mr. CRAMTON. The items I have mentioned are from the reclamation fund?

Doctor MEAD. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. There is proposed to be appropriated under subsection (r) on page 87 of the pending bill, $100,000 from the General Treasury for investigations as to arid and semiarid swamp and cut-over timber lands.

Doctor MEAD. Those are included in this statement.

Mr. CRAMTON. Where is the other item?

Mr. BEADLE. The other items åre in the forepart of the bill. Mr. CRAMTON. The item of $21,500 comes from the reclamation fund. The item of $125,000 also appears to come from the fund. How is the item of $20,000 for the Rio Grande Commission paid? Mr. BEADLE. That is out of the general fund.

Mr. FRENCH. You mean out of the general reclamation fund? Mr. BEADLE. No; out of the General Treasury.

Mr. FRENCH. Isn't that true of the investigations for secondary projects?

Mr. CRAMTON. Not what is covered here.

Mr. BEADLE. Originally, at least, it was an item for the general fund.

Mr. CRAMTON. Everything there is out of the reclamation fund except the $20,000.

Mr. BEADLE. The $20,000 item is in quite a different category in other respects from the other items. This was not made up as a reclamation fund table, but simply as a handy memorandum of the items in that bill about which the bureau had correspondence or in which it was interested.

Mr. CRAMTON. Will you insert that table in the record? (The table referred to is as follows:)

Reclamation items in second deficiency bill, H. R. 9559, payable from the reclamation fund

Mr. CRAMTON. There is a total of $2,011,500.

Doctor MEAD. If that bill passes it would be deducted from the $6,000,000.

Mr. CRAMTON. If that should become a law and that money should be expended or obligated by the bureau between now and the 1st of July, it would leave approximately $4,000,000.

Each of those items provides for investigations as to feasibility. Take the North Platte," for continued investigations." Salt Lake, for continued investigations." The Owyhee, "for continued investigations." The Yakima," for continued investigations."

As I re all, as to most of those projects, the investigations that had been made by the Reclamation Service were very incomplete and the Reclamation Service had not reached a point where they had passed upon the feasibility of those projects, except possibly one. In debate in the House certainly-and I think also in the Senate-it was indicated as a justification for Congress making an appropriation for a project that had not been properly investigated and passed upon by the administrative branch of the Government that the construction would be dependent upon the result of such continued investigations.

So that, Doctor Mead, am I correct in understanding that if this H. R. 9559 becomes a law with the opening of the coming session of Congress and this money is then made available, your bureau will proceed with the investigations before taking up construction?

COMMITTEES FORMED TO DETERMINE FEASIBILITY OF PROJECTS CARRIED IN SECOND

DEFICIENCY BILL

Doctor MEAD. That is correct as to part, but there is another feature connected with all these projects that has a great deal to do

with their feasibility, and that is the legal arrangements and the agreement with the people on the ground that they will repay these costs. Those agreements have not been made and construction ought to wait on the making of satisfactory contracts for repayments.

Mr. CRAMTON. I am sorry to have to take up with you an indefinite question like this, but you will see that it is immediately pertinent to the appropriation bill before us. It affects this fund to the extent of $2,000,000, whether this money is spent or not. So that I would understand, as to these items in H. R. 9559, in the orderly procedure, there should be first an investigation sufficient to enable the Reclamation Service and the Interior Department to satisfy itself whether each particular project is feasible and the expenditure of money is justified. That is the first step, as I understand it. Doctor MEAD. May I interrupt you there so that you will understand the situation? Subsequent to the adjournment of Congress, we secured the cooperation of the agricultural colleges, and did what we could with the $50,000 that had been made available for investigations to endeavor to find out the economic situation on these projects that were coming up before Congress; and the reports that have been made will be, I believe, of value to Congress as information.

Mr. CRAMTON. I do not want to get on a side issue, Doctor. Allow me to complete my statement. I say, then, that the orderly procedure would be first the making of whatever investigation is necessary to enable the department to satisfy itself as to the feasibility of these projects and the propriety of using the money for their construction.

Second, the conduct of negotiations with local interests with a view to the making of such agreements or contracts concerning the construction of the project and the return of the money, etc., as the department may think is necessary to properly protect the interests of the Government.

Third, the making of contracts and commencement of construction. Those are the three steps, are they not?

Doctor MEAD. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. As to the first step, the making of the investigation: You say that, taking advantage of the $50,000 that was available for investigations, you had gone ahead with your work and you called on various agricultural colleges and others for assistance in that work, and that you have some information to present to Congress. I discussed this somewhat with the Secretary, and I do not want to put this in a form to embarass the bureau; but may I ask this? Generally speaking, Doctor, without casting any reflection or intending any reflection upon any persons, but just falling back on our knowledge of human nature, which is very common, do you think that citizens and officials of a State subject to local interests, financial interest, political interest, are the best sources of advice as to whether a project is feasible or not?

Doctor MEAD. They have this advantage over investigators taken from any place else. They have a knowledge of local conditions which is invaluable. I had to consider that; the question was raised, as to whether they would be able to make a report that would in any way reflect on the feasibility of a project, because of local pressure. But against this there was the consideration that we were taking

nen who held economic and scientific positions in institutions of learning. They had their own reputation to maintain. If we had their names signed to a report they became in a sense responsible for the project.

Mr. CRAMTON. Do you think that would ever worry them at all? Doctor MEAD. I do. I think that one mistake of reclamation is that the whole responsibility of everything that has been done has been placed on Congress or the central Government. I think we ought to go farther in requiring a larger measure of responsibility on the part of States, and I think this is an opening wedge toward that conception.

In our report this year we advocate requiring a State to assume a certain part of the financial responsibility for a new project for exactly that purpose, of lessening the pressure for the expenditure of money regardless of results.

We had these various committees appointed, and I want to say this of their reports, that I think they do endeavor to give an accurate statement of conditions. They make statements that were denied in regard to these projects last year regarding costs, regarding the difficulties of settlement; and unless we had had just this kind of a committee, we would have had great difficulty in establishing these facts before Congress. What we have now are statements as to the time required to repay, statements regarding the income of crops, statements regarding the cost of constructing the works, but more important, we have also the cost of improving and equipping a farm.

PRESS RELEASE ON PROJECTS JUNE 23, 1924

Mr. CRAMTON. I think it would be interesting at this point to put in the record a statement, which is the press release from the Interior Department under date of June 23, with reference to this proposed survey, which it is stated is to be in accordance with the recommendations of the special advisory committee's report and is to touch upon the Owyhee project in Oregon, the Vale, the Salt Lake, the Spanish Springs, and the Kittitas. The committee in each case is to be made up of one member of the bureau, one recognized authority in farm management, preferably from the Department of Agriculture or a State agricultural college, one financial authority, preferably a banker in whom the State has confidence,

etc.

This statement will be included in the record.

(The statement referred to is as follows:)

[Department of the Interior. Memorandum for the press. Immediate release June 23.

1924]

A survey of Government reclamation projects for the purpose of classifying the soils, determining the financial condition of the water users. fixing the irrigable areas against which charges may be assessed will be made by the Bureau of Reclamation, it was announced to-day at the Department of the Interior.

The survey will be in accordance with the recommendations of the special advistory committee's report.

In addition, field investigations of five new projects will be made during the summer. They include the propsed Owyhee project in Oregon the Vale project in Oregon, the Salt Lake Bas'n in Utah, the Spanish Springs in Nevada, and the Kittitas in Washington. A new plan has been adopted by