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in from the various activities your bill proposes to just retain the same number; there is no cut in the number of employees, but simply a transfer from one to the other?

Mr. HARVEY. Well these reductions, as the result of the consolidation of the activities in the office of the Secretary, are going on in the bureaus and will be reflected in the bureau estimates.

Mr. CRAMTON. Yes. Take one from the Alaska Railroad. He was getting $6,000 a year, and he is to be paid this year out of the office of the Secretary instead of out of the office of the Alaska Railroad?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. What is his work?

Mr. HARVEY. He is administrative assistant to the Secretary.

Mr. CRAMTON. And why should not the Alaska Railroad be charged with his expense; does his work have to do with the Alaska Railroad?

Mr. HARVEY. His work has to do more or less with all of the activities of the department, he being in the Secretary's office.

Mr. CRAMTON. Has he heretofore been paid out of the Alaska Railroad appropriation?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes, sir. It was estimated for this year in the Alaska Railroad.

Mr. CRAMTON. Who holds that position?'

Mr. HARVEY. Mr. E. K. Burlew.

Mr. CRAMTON. And he has been charged to the Alaska Railroad, although performing work for the department generally?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. Do you think you have the authority, when you want a $6,000 man in the department, to go into the Alaska Railroad fund and burden that with a position that has not anything to do with the Alaska Railroad?

Mr. HARVEY. As I said, Mr. Chairman, that position has to do with all of the activities of the department, including the Alaska Railroad, and a good deal of the administrative work connected with the Alaska Railroad is in the Secretary's office-because that bureau has only three other employees in Washington.

Mr. CRAMTON. But I think the Alaska Railroad ought to be charged with the expense incident to its operation and it ought not to be burdened with a nickle that is not incident to its operation. Of course in this case you are relieving them of that salary, which, in the main, has had nothing to do with the railroad, so that in so far as there has been anything unfair in that you are correcting it; but I am wondering how many more you have charged up to the Alaska Railroad, engaged in other department activities? Mr. HARVEY. None that I recall.

Mr. CRAMTON. The Alaska Railroad is a little different from other bureaus of the department; it does not so greatly matter whether an extensive bureau like the Bureau of Mines is paid for through the Secretary's appropriation, or the other bureau's appropriation, but when you come to the Alaska Railroad, it is something that is on trial, and many people insist that it ought to be made self-supporting, and it is unfair to load that with items not properly belonging to it, and I do not believe you have authority in law to do it. Now, are there other items, are there other people in the depart

ment doing general departmental work, charged to the Alaska Railroad?

Mr. HARVEY. I don't know of any others.

Mr. CRAMTON. Are there any that are charged to the Reclamation Bureau that are doing general work in the department?

Mr. HARVEY. Well, in this new traffic division which was established the 1st of last December, there are employees detailed to that division from the Bureau of Reclamation, and they are handling Bureau of Reclamation matters.

Mr. CRAMTON. That is a different propostion. I am speaking of officials, employees, transacting business that is not chargeable properly to the Bureau of Reclamation. Are they drawing salaries from the Reclamation funds?

Mr. HARVEY. I don't know of any at all.

Mr. CRAMTON. You see you have quite a leeway in the Reclamation Bureau and I would like you to make sure on that point.

Mr. HARVEY. I will check up on that point and will make any correction necessary if I am wrong.

Mr. CRAMTON. And, further, to what extent have you cleaned up on this situation? If this goes through as it is now, the arrangement as submitted by the budget, will all the employees actually on duty under the Secretary's office be cared for out of this appropriation, or will you still have employees doing work there but paid from other appropriations?

Mr. HARVEY. We have attempted to transfer, with these 17 details

Mr. CRAMTON. You think that cleans up the situation, do you? Mr. HARVEY. I think that cleans it up.

Mr. FRENCH. I would like to ask with regard to the converse of the proposition that the chairman has brought out. Will we load onto the Secretary's office under this new arrangement expenditures for handling the Alaska Railroad which ought as a guide to the future be shown as a charge to the Alaska Railroad, but which will not so show up, providing this plan shall go through. For instance, take $6,000 that heretofore has shown up as an expenditure to the Alaska Railroad. Assuming that heretofore that was necessary for general administration work for the Alaska Railroad, will it now be an item that will be paid for services largely for the Alaska Railroad, or in a proportionate degree that the Secretary's office generally does work for the Alaska Railroad, and yet which will not be shown as a charge to the expenditures of the Alaska Railroad, but rather to the Secretary's office?

Mr. HARVEY. The charge will be against the Secretary's appropriation, because the position is in the Secretary's office.

Mr. FRENCH. Further, though, is his work so largely of a character that had to do with the Alaska Railroad that the $6,000 represents in your estimation a proportionate charge of Interior Department expenses that should be charged to the Alaska Railroad?

Mr. HARVEY. I think the reason for transferring the position to the Secretary's roll is that there is not sufficient justification for the Alaska Railroad appropriation carrying the amount; that is why the position is being transferred to the Secretary's roll. That is the office in which the employee is working.

Mr. CRAMTON. Can you not state this positively and directly; that under your rule as you are now arranging you can say whether or not each bureau and activity is to bear its own burden?

Mr. HARVEY. That is what we are attempting to do, and that is in accordance with the statement the Secretary made this morning. Mr. CRAMTON. So when I asked you as to one phase of it, as to the Alaska Railroad and the Bureau of Reclamation, I wish you would take up as to the converse of it what Mr. French has suggested, both as to the Alaska Railroad and the Bureau of Reclamation, and let us be sure that they are not carrying burdens that they ought not to carry. On the other hand, let us be sure that their burdens are being carried by those funds and not by other appropriations. You can insert something on that.

Mr. HARVEY. I have ascertained that in addition to the employees on the roll of the Bureau of Reclamation detailed to the new division of traffic there is one employee in grade 3 C. A. F., at $1,680, carried on that roll who was detailed to the division of appointments, mails and files, office of the Secretary, upon the consolidation of the field appointment work of that bureau in the Secretary's office on October 1 last. This position is one of the 17 which it is proposed to transfer to the Secretary's roll and drop from the bureau rolls July 1, 1926.

There has been carried on the Alaska Railroad roll one employee in grade 1 C. A. F., at $1,140, assisting in the work of the returns office and the National Park Service. This employee has resigned effective November 30, and the vacancy will not be filled. The proposed transfers effective July 1, 1926, the department believes, will accomplish a fair and proper adjustment as it will place the Alaska Railroad and the Bureau of Reclamation on the same basis with respect to matters handled in the Secretary's office as other bureaus of the department. There are no employees on the Secretary's roll working in the Bureau of Reclamation or office of the Alaska Railroad.

Mr. CRAMTON. There is an increase by the transfer of those telephone employees that has not been borne heretofore by this item; but, on the contrary, you have under "contingent expenses" paid a certain amount for this service. You set that forth very fully. There are two other questions in connection with it. The situation is that these operators have been on the company payroll and we have been paying a stated sum. Now the company simply says under July 8th, in their letter, that they don't want to do that any more. Do you understand that there is in the new contract, in which that item is omitted, any compensation to the Government, or does the company just get out of that several thousand dollars a year?

Mr. HARVEY. Well, Mr. Chairman, I understand that through an arrangement with the telephone committee

Mr. CRAMTON. The General Supply Committee you mean?

Mr. HARVEY. The General Supply Committee, yes; it has been decided that the Government in all cases should take over on its pay roll these telephone operators.

Mr. CRAMTON. Yes; I see what they have decided.

Mr. HARVEY. It will be an additional expense to the Government on acount of the salaries of the telephone operators; they will become employees of the department.

Mr. CRAMTON. And they will be paid higher wages?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. Then, as I understand it, we now pay the full cost of this telephone service?

Mr. HARVEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. Except operators we pay for in a different item? Mr. HARVEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. Will you ascertain whether it is true that no other department has operators furnished by the telephone company? Mr. HARVEY. It has been ascertained that the telephone company does not supply operators to any other department.

Mr. CRAMTON. Now we come to the loss of repay from other offices, which is between two thousand and three thousand dollars. Why should not that be taken care of as heretofore?

Mr. HARVEY. These telephone operators will be on the roll of the Secretary's office under the head of salaries, and we have felt that it was not good business administration to attempt to get repay for salaries to a salary appropriation.

Mr. CRAMTON. That is now in the Customs Division, that is up there; I suppose that has heretofore been spending a part of it out of their contingent fund.

Mr. HARVEY. Yes; there are 9 or 10 different activities that repay for services furnished through that switchboard.

Mr. CRAMTON. Do you happen to know whether that has been taken into consideration in making up their estimates?

Mr. HARVEY. Their estimates? I know nothing about their estimates, because they are not connected with our department.

Mr. CRAMTON. Why would it not be better if this telephone service was put under Colonel Sherrill? Inasmuch as 8 or 10 different. departments are getting the benefit of it, why should not all be charged to the Secretary's office?

Mr. HARVEY. You will recall that during the first year of the operation of the building the telephone service was under their supervision, but they claimed it was not in line with the things that they were expected to do and asked to be relieved of it.

Mr. CRAMTON. You think Colonel Sherrill did not want it?

Mr. HARVEY. It was turned back to our department because they did not want it.

Mr. CRAMTON. And not because you did want it?

Mr. HARVEY. We had it before, and we saw no reason why we could not take it over if it was determined that it was not a matter that properly came under the supervision of Colonel Sherrill.

CONTINGENT EXPENSES

Mr. CRAMTON. Next we have contingent expenses. Contingent expenses, Department of the Interior, 1926_

$76,000

For contingent expenses of the office of the Secretary, and the bureaus, offices, and buildings of the department; furniture, carpets, ice, lumber, hardware, dry goods, advertising, telegraphing, telephone service, street-car fares not exceeding $250, and expressage; examination of estimates for appropriations in the field for any bureau, office, or service of the department; not exceed

ing $500 shall be available for the payment of damages caused to private property by department motor vehicles exclusive of those operated by the Government fuel yards; purchase and exchange of motor trucks, motor cycles, and bicycles, maintenance, repair, and operation of motor-propelled passengercarrying vehicles and motor trucks, motor cycles, and bicycles, to be used only for official purposes; diagrams, awnings, filing and labor-saving devices; constructing model and other cases and furniture; postage stamps to prepay postage on matter addressed to Postal Union countries and for special-delivery stamps for use in the United States; expense of taking testimony and preparing the same, in connection with disbarment proceedings instituted against persons charged with improper practices before the department, its bureaus and offices; not exceeding $450 for the purchase of newspapers notwithstanding the provisions of section 192 of the Revised Statutes of the United States; and other absolutely necessary expenses not hereinbefore provided for, including traveling expenses, fuel and lights, typewriting and labor-saving machines, $76,000.

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Mr. HARVEY. The estimated expenditures from the appropriation for contingent expenses for the fiscal year 1926, as itemized above,

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