The CHAIRMAN. May we then take it as a firm assurance that there are no unobligated funds that would not extinguish in fiscal 1948, that this will be expended in fiscal 1949?

Mr. WEBB. Let me look at this table for a moment.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

May I make myself a little bit clear. If you have not put in the President's budget unobligated funds carrying over from the previous fiscal year, which you intend to spend in fiscal 1949, it is perfectly apparent that your expenditure budget for fiscal 1949 is grossly distorted. Now, I am just trying to find out which of two things is true: Either that there are no obligations of that kind going over, or that if there are unobligated funds of that kind going over that they will or will not be spent in fiscal 1949.

Mr. WEBB. Senator, the budget does not normally carry every detail of the obligability of funds. It carries the appropriations and it carries the expenditures to be made under those.

Now, there are a great many details of just when funds expire. We have supplied a complete statement of that to the Appropriations Committee, and I have it here.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Webb, I think you are on rather shaky ground. Senator TAFT. Why do you not answer the question, Mr. Webb? The CHAIRMAN. Does not your expenditure budget contemplate the expenditures that you are going to make in the fiscal year? Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then would it not include unobligated funds that passed over from the preceding fiscal year?

Mr. WEBB. It would include any

The CHAIRMAN. Then we should expect to find those in the estimate of expenditures, should we not?

Mr. WEBB. Right. And they are there.

The CHAIRMAN. And if we assume that they are not in there, then we have had what is the equivalent of an Executive rescission of the

amount.

Mr. WEBB. Let me ask Mr. Lawton to answer that question. He has prepared that table and has been in this work for many years.

Mr. LAWTON. Some of the presently available funds will carry over for expenditure beyond 1949.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not talking about beyond 1949. I am talking about 1949. I will come to beyond 1949 later.

What is the carry-over of unobligated funds into fiscal 1949 which will be spent in fiscal 1949, and which do not reflect in the President's budget of expenditures?

Mr. LAWTON. I do not know of any that do not reflect in the President's budget.

The CHAIRMAN. First, will you give us a table which will make that very clear?

(The information requested follows:)

TABLE VI.-Relationship of estimated expenditure authority to estimated expenditures, fiscal year 1949 (based on the recommendations in the 1949 Budget)

1 This amount consists of a $2,540,000,000 balance of an authorization treated as a public debt transaction, $8,699,995,420 of obligated balances in appropriation and fund accounts, and $905,157,298 of unobligated balances in appropriation and fund accounts.

2 Deduct.

NOTE. The foregoing table excludes the appropriations, balances, and expenditures for statutory public debt retirement:

Permanent appropriations for fiscal year 1949..

$624, 763, 000

Appropriation and fund balances brought forward, available for expenditure in 1949. 5, 957, 080, 681 Total available in 1949..

Expenditure for statutory debt retirement in 1949.

Balance available after June 30, 1949.

6, 581, 843, 681 624, 763, 000 5,957,080, 681

The foregoing table also excludes unobligated balances as of July 1, 1948, in expired accounts, estimated at $625,330,507. Balances in expired accounts are available for expenditure only in payment of obligations which were incurred in the prior year or years for which the appropriations were made: therefore, no expenditures are estimated from these unobligated balances. The unexpended balances in such accounts will automatically be carried to surplus on June 30, 1949, and June 30, 1950.

The CHAIRMAN. Second, if there were any such, which do not reflect in the President's budget, expenditure budget for fiscal 1949, may we assume that that money will not be spent in fiscal 1949? Mr. LAWTON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of executive policy? Is that right? Mr. LAWTON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. You will furnish the data?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes, sir.

Senator BARKLEY. What is the technical definition of unobligated sum? We appropriate money. Sometimes it expires at the end of a fiscal year. It is no longer available, it cannot be obligated after that date, it goes back into the Treasury into the general fund.

Other appropriations go over beyond the fiscal year in which they are made. They may go for a year or 2 or 3 years. The string out over a period of years. Which category of obligations or unobligation do those two situations come into?

Mr. LAWTON. An appropriation that is made for a fiscal year must be obligated within that fiscal year if it is to be spent at any time. Senator BARKLEY. And that obligation takes place by the executive department?

Mr. LAWTON. Yes, sir.

Senator BARKLEY. In fact, it might entirely lapse if the executive department did not obligate it or spend it, or obligate it for expenditure in that period.

Mr. LAWTON. That is right.

Senator BARKLEY. It may not be expended in that year, but it must be obligated?

Mr. LAWTON. The averages of appropriations are approximately seven-eighths of the appropriations expended within the year, but they must all be obligated.

A great many appropriations for public works and some for other general purposes, specific legislative purposes, are made on the basis that they are available until expended. Those appropriations do not have to be obligated within the fiscal year. They do not expire for obligation, but remain available for both obligation and expenditure until the appropriation is exhausted.

Senator LUCAS. That last type, that is in line with what the Congress has said you should do.

Mr. LAWTON. That is right. The appropriation act specifically states that it is available until expended.

Senator BREWSTER. There is one specific illustration that may perhaps bring this out. The appropriations for construction of airports, in which there was an authorization of, I think, around 50 or 60 million dollars, which the President last fiscal year revoked and said that none of it should be spent during that year, was all carried

over.

Now, you estimated in this year, in this year's budget, I assume, the expenditure of much of that fund, did you?

Mr. LAWTON. We estimated the expenditure of funds for the construction of airports for the Federal airport aid program. We estimated expenditures from obligated balances of $45,000,000.

Senator BREWSTER. Do you have the figures as to how far that estimate has been realized? My information is that it was very little.

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Out of $75,000,000 that has been authorized so far, only $13,000,000 has been obligated to date, so that it seems likely that very little of that money will be used this current fiscal year.

Do you have the figures on that?

Mr. LAWTON. I do not have the figures here with respect to 1948 appropriations. This is a 1949 expenditure that I am referring to. Senator BREWSTER. You have estimated for the next fiscal year $45,000,000.

Mr. WEBB. Of expenditures, Senator.

Senator BREWSTER. Yes; I understand.
Senator TAFT. Page A62 of the Budget.

Mr. LAWTON. We have estimated $21,565,000 will be spent in 1948.
Senator BREWSTER. When was that estimated?

Mr. LAWTON. That is included in the budget.

Senator BREWSTER. The latest testimony we have is that only $13,000,000 will be obligated up to this past month, which would make it very difficult to spend $21,000,000, would it not?

Mr. LAWTON. It may be. I have not examined that program recently. But there do remain 4 months for obligation and expenditure within this year.

Senator BREWSTER. I understand.

Senator BARKLEY. What happens in this case: We appropriated a lot of money for flood control for the fiscal year 1948. The President, by Executive order, eliminated a lot of it and then restored some of it. But it has not all been restored. What happens to that specific appropriation for any particular flood-control project that the President by Executive order eliminates? Does that expire at the end of the year, or does it go over into the next year?

Mr. LAWTON. It continues available until expended. The President did not eliminate the expenditures; he delayed them.

Senator BARKLEY. And it may be obligated during the following fiscal year?

Mr. LAWTON. It may be obligated and spent during the following, or several following, fiscal years.

Senator BARKLEY. In view of his order postponing or delaying, it could not be obligated in the fiscal year for which appropriated? Mr. LAWTON. That was the purpose of it; yes.

Senator BYRD. Mr. Lawton, the budget is entirely on the expenditure basis, of course.

Mr. LAWTON. The budget includes, in submission, both appropriations and expenditures. The figures that are normally referred to, the 39.7, is an expenditure figure.

Senator BYRD. It has nothing to do directly with authorizations or obligations or anything else. That is the amount of money that you estimate will be spent, actually spent, out of the Treasury within the next fiscal year.

Mr. LAWTON. That is right.

Senator BYRD. That is an expenditure basis entirely.

Senator TAFT. In making an expenditure, do you therefore include (1) what you estimate will be spent out of a new appropriation; (2) what you estimate will be spent from funds that have been obligated before the 1st of July but not paid out; (3) things that you estimate

will be spent from appropriations which carry over, even though they have not been obligated? Is that right?

Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir.

Senator TAFT. Expenditures items are made up of those three separate items. Are there any others?

Mr. LAWTON. There are expenditures, of course, from the checking account of corporations that enter into the budget on the basis of corporate authorizations for expenditure, and there are expenditures from authorizations for programs which are treated as public-debt transactions, such as the British loan and things of that sort.

Mr. WEBB. And some, what we call no-year appropriations, that carry forward, such as the pubic debt.

Senator TAFT. That was included in my third category.

The CHAIRMAN. Has there been the slightest doubt in your mind as to what I want?

Mr. LAWTON. No, Senator. What you want is the amount of unobligated funds that came into 1949 and that will be spent in 1949, and whether or not there are any of such funds that are omitted from the budget that are actually expected to be spent.

The CHAIRMAN. Right.

Senator TAFT. In estimating those expenditures, do you ask the departments, or do you estimate on a percentage basis what percent of the appropriations are usually spent? How do you get those estimates for expenditures?

Mr. WEBB. They differ with the differing programs. We do utilize all the information that departments have. But we have, in our Estimates Division, men who have had broad experience with things like these big public-works programs, and we make our own estimates of the expenditures.

Looking at the broad program, you usually can do a much better job than if you tend to add up the individual items that go in it. So we utilize both types of information.

Senator TAFT. You take a kind of a Gallup poll?

Mr. WEBB. No, sir; not exactly. We have developed some criteria, Senator, that have been very helpful over a long period of time in judging the amounts that will be spent.

I might say that that is a difficult problem to handle with the heads of the executive departments when we try to make our expenditure estimates completely realistic, and they feel that they can maybe move a little bit faster.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Webb, if the President's supplemental request with respect to the 1947 budget had been met by Congress, how much would the estimate, the Presidential estimate of expenditures in the fiscal year 1947, have been exceeded?

Mr. WEBB. Let me see if I have any figures here on that. You mean for the fiscal year 1947?

The CHAIRMAN. Fiscal 1947.

Mr. WEBB. No, sir. I do not have anything as far back as 1947. The CHAIRMAN. Will you take the list of the President's supplemental requests that were not embodied in the budget, as presented for fiscal 1947, and put them in the record, please?

Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir.