12 to 24 months, and I do not feel as firm about the second and third year, but on the first year, I feel that they are completely realistic.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that the 16 countries that met in July, between that time and the time that they submitted their estimates to this country, had time to send out field parties, project actual projects, estimate the cost of them and come up with what might be termed an estimate comparable to those that we use in connection with our reclamation and flood-control projects?

Mr. WEBB. No, sir, I would not say the information would be comparable.

The CHAIRMAN. All I am driving at, as to that vast item we are acting on, moved by let us call it intelligent and patriotic judgment, is there not necessarily large room for variation up or down, under the programs as projected?

Mr. WEBB. I do not think that there is a large area. I would add the word "informed" judgment, also.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no objection to that, if by informed judgment you exclude that type of field work, that type of thorough groundwork investigation to which we are habituated to in connection with our large projects here. Would you exclude that type of work from your statement?

Mr. WEBB. Let me indicate one fact, and that is that when you are operating within time limits such as my appearance here today, with the necessity of including some statement for you with respect to the new housing recommendations and bearing in mind that expenditures are an entirely different thing from appropriation requests and authorizations, my estimate to you on the domestic housing program is not based on careful, detailed schedules; it is based on broad experience with that kind of a program.

The CHAIRMAN. Then in another field which you have just mentioned, you do not have what might be called a firm estimate of expenditures, is that not correct?

Mr. WEBB. It is certainly firm within certain limitations. I would say for the first year there are relatively narrow possibilities of deviation.

The CHAIRMAN. If that basic work has not been done, out of which you can calculate the cost of a house or calculate the cost of a dam, how can you say that it is firm within narrow deviations?

Mr. WEBB. I say that partly because in our study of the presentations of expenditures under the European recovery program, we definitely had the objective to examine as closely as we could the supporting data and not to include items that had any serious doubt about them. We did eliminate items there.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the supporting data include the plans and specifications for specific projects?

Mr. WEBB. In some cases they are specific projects. Generally, they are rather broad plans involving the economy of 16 nations and deficits of payments.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you not say that that allows wide field for adjustment under experience, up or down?

Mr. WEBB. I would certainly say that a thorough study of the work of these committees that I have indicated might permit different people to arrive at different opinions. You asked my opinion. My opinion is that it is good work and that the estimates are realistic.

The CHAIRMAN. I will agree with you in the objective of the work. All that I am asking you is whether the Bureau of the Budget or whether you consider that this is an inviolable figure or, due to the nature of its preparation, it might be subject to large adjustments up or down.

Mr. WEBB. I consider if this country adopts the objectives of the program and desires to implement them, the expenditures will be not less than those indicated in the budget.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, the expenditures might not be less than those indicated in the budget, but they might not have necessary relation to the projects which are in mind. I have no doubt that when we are through, the expenditures will be those indicated in the budget, but I am trying to find out whether, and so far I have not succeeded, you believe that in that field out of the necessities from which the estimates were prepared there necessarily must be a larger or a large area of leeway up or down.

Mr. WEBB. The trouble I have, Senator, is that we have taken out most of the leeway downward in presenting a program which is down to a very firm basis.

The CHAIRMAN. I suggest that you did it on the basis of generality; I suggest that when the 16 nations first made their estimates, they were grossly swollen from the American viewpoint and that Mr. Clayton went over and told them to stop their nonsense and bring the figures down to something within the range that might be acceptable in the United States; and that that reduction was made on the basis of generality and not in a reconsideration of the details of specific projects. Am I right or wrong?

Mr. WEBB. I think that you are right. I might say this, Senator. I have with me today the head of our estimates division who gave detailed consideration to the material submitted to us, who can tell you the procedure that we used in following those, if you wish to hear the factors that were involved.

The CHAIRMAN. I may want to question you on that. I do not now wish to make a debate on the bill that is coming up before the Senate today. I have been very careful to make it clear that personally I favored the objectives. I hope that I have made it very clear that I am not making any suggestion here that the amount should be greater or less. I am simply trying to drive at the way in which the figures were accomplished, leading to the end point which I am making, that there are large areas in this budget of yours that are adjustable.

Senator BARKLEY. In that connection, I was getting at the variables in an estimated budgetary expenditure under the European program. If Congress should fail to adopt it the $4,000,000,000 plus would be eliminated.

The question of individual projects will be determined by the Administrator. He will pass upon those things after the expenditure has been authorized and in the very nature of the case the Budget Bureau could not anticipate a decision by the Administrator of the European recovery plan as to any given project, I imagine.

But based upon the theory that Congress will authorize the program, and based upon the theory that the Administrator will make due and diligent and prompt effort to carry it out, in view of all the conditions, you figured, with all those who were assisting in arriving

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at a reasonable amount to be included in the budget that this amount was as nearly correct as could be arrived at in view of all these circumstances. Is that true?

Mr. WEBB. Yes, Senator; and these plans are devoted toward implementing an objective for an authorizing bill. Not only is a great deal of information being submitted to Congress for the purpose of supporting the authorization, but immediately following that there will be as detailed information as is available with respect to the actual appropriation itself and a great deal of information about specific projects will be included. But the general plan cannot be confined to specific projects that are foreseen over a 4-year period.

Senator BARKLEY. The Administrator might turn down a project which would eliminate the expenditure for that, and he might approve another one which would completely absorb that expenditure, so that you have to strike what is as nearly a fair and general average as possible in order to have any budgetary recommendations at all on it. Mr. WEBB. That is right.

Senator GEORGE. May I ask the Director if he will furnish for the record at this point, in connection with his testimony, the exact amounts included in the President's budget for all foreign aid, not only European aid but aid in the occupied areas as well as China, if any, Greece and Turkey, if any?

Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir.

Senator GEORGE. In other words, every item that is included in the President's budget.

Senator BYRD. May I ask that that be furnished in the names of the recipient countries, how much each country gets?

Mr. WEBB. We will give you the best information that is available at this time.

Senator BYRD. Furnishing information on where the money finally goes.

Mr. WEBB. As nearly as we can. Some of the programs, like the far eastern programs, are not completely developed.

(The information referred to follows:)

TABLE II.-Summary of Budget estimates for foreign-aid programs (including revisions of January budget where noted)

TABLE II.-Summary of Budget estimates for foreign-aid programs (including revisions of January budget where noted)—Continued

1 Bank's accounts not kept on usual obligation basis.

* Includes $26,000,000 of obligations under contract and other obligation authority. 3 For country break-down of European recovery program see tables IV and V.

4 Figures under "Other foreign aid" are revised from January budget.

Estimated that about $50,000,000 will be encumbered for procurement, but not actually obligated due to Army allotment system.

• Preliminary estimate submitted by Department of the Army, not yet reviewed.

Senator LUCAS. May I inquire whether that saving is included in the Committee on Foreign Relations?

Mr. WEBB. I do not know what the latest information furnished by General Marshall is. My understanding is that he gave the Committee on Foreign Relations a letter a month or so-maybe 3 weeks-ago in which he mentioned the amount, $570,000,000 for China and stated that the other programs would raise that figure to about $1,000,000,000.

Now, since that time he has made a statement on the Greek-Turkish aid. The estimate has not yet been submitted to Congress as a final recommendation to the Congress, specifying the detailed amounts, but I believe it will come shortly.

Now, as to the details with respect to other than the Greek-Turkish aid, no conclusion has finally been reached about that. An authorizing bill is now before Congress.

Is that what you wanted, Senator?

Senator LUCAS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Connally?

Senator CONNALLY. So far as the amounts that are to be allocated to the various countries, there has been a good deal, according to my view, of confusion and uncertainty about that in the published lists. And in those published lists some of those countries it is anticipated will not receive anything. They are in the plan to try to coordinate and organize the economy of western Europe, but some of those countries will probably not need any aid, will not be extended any aid to themselves, but they cooperate and assist in the rehabilitation program for that area.

So I do not know whether you will be able to give a list of how much is going to this country and how much is going to that country. Of course, that is going to be largely determined by the Administrator when he gets his funds and gets his organization and takes a general

view of the whole situation and sees where the most urgent needs are at the moment, and works out his program gradually over a period of time.

Mr. WEBB. I understood Senator George wanted the amounts over and above the European recovery program, that he was not asking that this extend to the details of the European recovery program.

Senator GEORGE. I do not want any speculation. I simply want what is included by way of foreign aid in the President's budget. Now, that is not speculative at all. You have it in there somewhere. Mr. WEBB. Yes, sir.

Senator GEORGE. I would like to have it tabulated and put in the record here. That to include not merely the aid to the 16 European countries, or China, but also any expenditures in the occupied areas in Germany and Japan and Korea.

Senator BYRD. Does that contemplate furnishing a break-down? Senator GEORGE. No break-down at all. Simply the items that are in the budget is what I wanted to get at.

Senator BYRD. I want to suggest a modification, that that also include full information as to what countries get how much.

Mr. WEBB. Senator, rather complete information has been supplied in connection with the European recovery program. You do not desire us to break down that at this time? You are thinking of the additional items over and above the amount recommended to you?

Senator BYRD. Not at all. I am thinking of the bill now before the Senate. I want to know how much each country is to receive under that bill.

Mr. WEBB. We will do the best we can.

(See table II, p. 58; table IV, p. 64; and table V, p. 66.)

Senator BYRD. I assume you have that, because you have an aggregate amount right down to the dollar, that you say cannot be reduced-I mean others have said that in the Government-without terrific injury. That being the case there must be a break-down somewhere. It is obtainable as to what these countries get, the specific amounts they are to receive.

Mr. WEBB. I think I understand what you want. We will give you the best information we have. I thought Senator George's question was arriving at the total amount which the budget expenditure would require.

Senator BYRD. That would be another request.

If you can, I would like you to furnish that as soon as possible. (See table II, p. 58; table IV, p. 64; and table V, p. 66.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Brewster?

Senator BREWSTER. In addition to what Senator Byrd asked for, I think the figures regarding countries are very significant and important. But I think also the question regarding projects, such as shipping and other items which are included in it, are also very significant.

I will say that following the chairman's suggestion this started, as I recall, originally at $27,000,000,000; was then reduced to $22,000,000,000

Senator BARKLEY. Started at $29,000,000,000.

Senator BREWSTER. Was then cut to 17 billion dollars and then the 17-billion-dollar figure was wiped out and we got down to the 6.8 billion dollars and then the 5.3 billion dollars.