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and increase purchases, rather than decrease purchases. The experience has shown that the use of our materials increases the sales rather than decreases them.
Senator BURDICK. If that works out, you have a better case,
Mr. ROSENFIELD. We believe that this works out and our function in all this is to do precisely that, increase use of materials.
Senator BURDICK. Well, as I say, the only thing I am afraid of is that you have someone who spends years in perfecting a textbook and all of a sudden, it is used free of charge, where does he sell textbooks?
Mr. ROSENFIELD. Remember, in each instance, we buy the book.
Senator BURDICK. Well, if you put them in a computer or put them over the air or put them over a closed circuit, you don't have to buy more than one.
Dr. WIGREN. We did in Houston, we had to buy 10 more because of this. As I said, teachers saw it for the first time and then they wanted to take the film and use it in their classroom a second and third time and really study it.
Senator BURDICK. This is the balance we are trying to achieve. I certainly do not want to destroy initiative, inventiveness, and new ideas. This we have to have.
Dr. EDINGER. Senator, I think I would say to that that the creativity we will engender in teaching will have something—should also be looked at. If a teacher cannot be creative in his uses of materials, then I think we have destroyed a form of creativity that may be even more important in the long run to the welfare of this country. We have to have creativity in both areas, in the preparation of materials and in teaching the use of these materials. I think this is a part of the balance that you have so aptly pointed out here that has to be kept in mind.
Senator BURDICK. That is stated very well.
Senator Fong. I can see where you would not do much harm to a person who wrote a big book or a complicated book, but I could see where you could do much harm to a woman like Mrs. Barnette, who was here yesterday. She produces things like 2 plus 2 equals 4 and throws it on a video screen, or she produces a film and you could very well duplicate things like that. For a person who writes an encyclopedia, a person who writes a textbook, you could have difficulty and it would cost you probably more to copy that and to print it yourself. But what protection can we give to a woman like Mrs. Barnette, who has these visual aids that you could very well duplicate very, very cheaply,
She says that the cost to her in the beginning is very, very great and that in copying or filming it, your expense is just a portion of hers. This is my difficulty.
Dr. WIGREN. We are not asking to copy the filmstrip; we are asking to display it. We see no difference between putting it on closed circuit and displaying it in many classrooms than to take that filmstrip to classroom after classroom after classroom during the day. I do not think we would buy any more filmstrips because of this, because the teachers would use it on a one-by-one basis instead of two or three classes using it at the same time.
Senator Fong. You will not copy it?
Mr. ROSENFIELD. May I attract your attention, please, to page 1 of the appendix of Dr. Wigren's statement. The proposed section 110(1A) deals only with performance or display of the work. In other words, we purchase this. Let's take the case to which you have referred.
Senator Fong. You do not make a copy of it?
Mr. ROSENFIELD. No. At this point, this was purchased for the purpose of display and all we are saying is that instead of displaying it in one classroom by one classroom and moving it around, is to be appropriate as well to display in this way. This provision does not deal with copying, it does not in any way affect the copying provision of 107, which still is as limited or as broad as this committee wishes to make it. We have said that we are satisfied (subject to the amendments that have been suggested) with the language of 107. Here in ş 110 (1A) we are talking only of the display of a material which we have purchased only for the purpose of display.
Senator Fong. Thank you for the definition
Miss Edinger, you speak very, very strongly against the statutory licensing system and the clearinghouse proposal. Now, in the bill that was reported by the House committee and looking at the fair use provision, do you see any indication of a statutory licensing system under that bill?
Dr. EDINGER, Under the bill itself; no. I think that what I wish to react to here were the many suggestions that have been made that this is the kind of an organization or an agency or whatever you wish to call it which will need to be set up in order to insure fair use or to extend fair use. There have been different interpretations at to what the reason for setting it up is and I am not going to get into all the various interpretations. But I was simply wishing to state the philosophical approach and opinion of the National Education Association to such a system as this, to give you the benefit of our thinking about why we would be opposed to any, at the moment, to the type of such agency that we have heard discussed.
Senator Fong. As far as the schoolroom is concerned, you don't find an indication in the House bill of the
Dr. EDINGER. No.
Dr. WIGREN. But there have been several proposals made on each side, even at the summit conference. I think what we are concerned about here is that a clearinghouse might mean, the end of, or the death of "fair use,” and we would not want that to happen. We feel that we will talk about a clearinghouse after such time as the law is passed and that there has been clearly established in the law that there is such a thing as "fair use" of copyrighted materials. We do not want to have happen what seemingly was in the mind of one person who testified before your committee yesterday, Mr. Howard Meyerhoff, when he said, on page 5 of his testimony, that "At best, fair use serves as a temporary safety valve until some clearinghouse system is established. At that time, the concept of fair use should lose its importance and die off as some form of vestigial tail."
Now, we would cry out against this with everything we have. This is what we are worired about, because if there is to be such a thing as a clearinghouse, we will talk about it after the bill is passed, but we want it to be built upon fair use of materials and not be in lieu of fair use of materials.
Senator Fong. Do you feel with the four provisions set out in the fair use section of the bill that there may be a creation of a clearinghouse?
Dr. EDINGER. I think is considerable discussion about this at the moment. There has been both at the register's office and through many other groups who have approached us in terms of trying to work out such a thing as a clearinghouse system for education. We want to point out to this committee the pitfalls of such a procedure.
Senator Fong. And you have objected to some of the wording in the House report which seems to restrict these four provisions?
Dr. EDINGER. That is right.
Senator Fong. And if these four points were to remain, you may be faced with a clearinghouse situation?
Dr. EDINGER. Yes; and we would be opposed unalterably, I thinkI think I speak for the committee on this
to a voluntary clearinghouse plan which would not require publishers to put into the clearinghouse everything they have. I want to reiterate that we do not even want to discuss the matter until we know positively we have the rights we should have under the fair use provision of the law and not have this vitiated by any plan that is likely to come in and be used as a substitute. The worst thing that might happen would be that fair use would die in the face of any clearinghouse system that might be proposed. I hope I make my point clear on this.
Senator Fong. Thank you.
Senator BURDICK. I would like to ask counsel another question along the lines that you developed, Senator Fong. Going back to this amendment on page 1, I just want to know if I understand it.
Let's take the fact situation developed yesterday by Mrs. Barnette, where she said the school districts have 100 schools and they could buy one of her visual aid films. Would you contend that that could be shown in a closed circuit to all 100 schools just by display?
Mr. ROSEN FIELD. What we are saying, Senator Burdick, is that that can now be done under 110(1). In 110(1), if the teacher takes that item into the classroom and puts it on a projector, that is legal.
Senator BURDICK. I understand that.
Mr. ROSENFIELD. What we are saying is instead of requiring that one purchased copy go around to five teachers in their respective rooms, we use the system of closed circuit within that school so that all five teachers can use it at one time, instead of using it in consecutive hours. We think that makes sense.
Senator BURDICK. Well, let's go a step further. Suppose the closed circuit embraces the school district in the 100 schools. What about that?
Mr. ROSENFIELD. This would permit it to be used for that purpose, just as (1) now permits it to be used.
Senator BURDICK. Then what about Mrs. Barnette. If she could only sell you one copy and you could make use of that in the hundred schools, she is going to go out of business.
Mr. ROSENFIELD. Right now we only buy one copy for the school system. The school that has 100 schools will buy 50 copies.
Senator BERDICK. I am just raising a cautious point. If Mrs. Barnette will not be making these any more, who will be making them?
Mr. ROSENFIELD. But the fact is that Houston did buy 10 more copies than would otherwise have been purchased if it had not been shown on that device.
What we are trying to point out is that the factual picture is the contrary of what was shown to you, that we are in fact developing greater purchasing power—in fact—whatever may seem to be the horrendous possibilities to the contrary. The fact that we are using closed circuit is merely another way of doing 110(1)—the classroom face-to-face approach, Senator Burdick.
We are not denying that there may be individual schools which act improperly. All we are saying is that, if we get a law which makes sense from the educational point of view, we will police that to see that it does not happen. We are not asking to make copies under section 110(1A); we are asking simply for the right to display what we purchased for the purpose of display.
Senator BURDICK. That is right, and you could purchase one film and display it in 100 schools?
Mr. ROSENFIELD. We can now.
Senator BURDICK. We are dealing with the whole subject. My point is what are the educators going to do, what are we going to do in this country when we don't have people like Mrs. Barnette or anybody else who devises these things and sells them?
Dr. WIGREX. On that basis, Senator, you could argue that we have to buy one print for every classroom. We simply do not have that kind of money.
Senator BURDICK. I am not saying that at all. I am trying to get a balance here.
Dr. WIGREX. We are, too. If you say we have to have one to 20 schools, that would not be fair, either.
Mr. ROSENFIELD. Let's come back a bit, Senator, and I think the point you are making is what we are talking about, and it is the real issue the committee has to face. At which point do you cut off the technology of the modern developments of science ? Let's suppose that you have a classroom of 20 children. Section 110(1) permits class use. Now, suppose you put that classroom and another classroom of children in a larger classroom of 40 children. It is still a classroom. Do we say, "No, you cannot use it"? Section 110(1) would permit it to be used if it is a classroom activity.
What we are trying to do is suggest that the classroom enterprise that we envisage in the classrooms of America today, tomorrow, in 1970, and so forth, should not be prevented from using the most effective technological device that is known to educational science. And, in our experience, the contrary of what has been indicated to you happens; the use of such effective device increases, rather than decreases, sales.
Senator BURDICK. Experience will show that is correct?
Mr. ROSENFIELD. Well, we have had the experience.
Mr. ROSENFIELD. She is talking of the fear of the future. We are talking of the fact of the past.
Dr. EDINGER. May I simply add a point here, because I think I might throw a bit of clarification on this.
When I began work in in-school television, there were classroom teachers who said, we fear that television is going to replace the classroom teacher. This is a very real fear. We have discovered that inschool television does not replace the classroom teacher. It enhances the position of the classroom teacher to a great extent.
I do not know the lady in question. I would predict that Mrs. Barnette is undergoing the same sort of built-in fear that our classroom teachers had when in-school television came into being. She is afraid this is going to happen. I would predict that this will not indeed happen, that at the moment, as has been pointed out, we do not buy film strips and materials for every single teacher in a building or in a school district. We buy at best three copies or four copies, or maybe five copies in a wealthy district. Then we send them out on a loan basis around to the various schools and you have to wait for tliem to come. What is going to happen is that we are still going to buy a certain number of copies, of prints, so that we may display them. Instead of sending them all into the classroom, we will display some on closed-circuit television. Some will still go into the classroom and these films are still going to wear out and we are still going to buy some more, because films just have a way of wearing out.
I really think that while I appreciate the fears, having lived through it with our classroom teachers, these fears are really not gromded.
Senator BURDICK. You made a prediction, Dr. Edinger. Supposing that these sources of originality do dry up, how do you produce these original works? Is the school district going to do it?
Dr. EDINGER. At the moment, many school districts are already producing their own. This is a way of developing that creativity that you talked about a moment ago. It is not going to dry up. So long as there is a need, we are going to create. It may be that people in the school district will create, that some people outside the school district will create, but teachers are going to demand that good materials be created. I do not believe there is going to be a dearth.
Senator Fong. Those creations will not be copyrighted ?
Senator BURDICK. I think we all agree that in our school systems, we want the best quality that we can get.
Dr. WIGREN. Right.
Senator McCLELLAN. Dr. Wigren, would you present your next witness?
Dr. WIGREN. Miss Lahti.
Miss LAHTI. Yes, I do, and if I may, I'll present my statement and just to make a comment or two, because much of what I have to say has been said before.
Senator McCLELLAN. Your statement will be printed in the record.