Presidents Act of 1958, other than subsections (a) and (c), would

not become effective until six months after the expiration of the term of office as President. However, the proposed amendment to section 3(b) of the Act to extend the period of availability of transition funds and services for the incoming administration to thirty days after the date of the inauguration would be of no real benefit, since transition needs are basically over before January As a practical matter, disbursements of transition funds are sometimes made thirty to sixty days after the inauguration for obligations incurred by the incoming administration prior to January 20 under existing statute.

20.

In a further reading of section 5, transportation expenses, we are not certain as to its intent. We would like to meet with the Committee to determine the intent and to make it more clear. Therefore, we have no position on this section at this time.

This concludes my opening remarks, Mr. Chairman. I will be glad to answer any questions that the Committee may have.

Mr. FONTAINE. To highlight a few items, as Mr. Golden said, I agree completely with at least the $3.5 million for the incoming transition. Just to give you an example of the changes, the ReaganBush office space at Connecticut and M streets was $9.57 per square foot in 1980. That space today is $27 a square foot. So you can see what inflation and things of that nature have done to the $2 million limitation enacted in 1976.

Mr. BROOKS. Can we move him to Beaumont or Houston?
Mr. FONTAINE. They seem to want to stay in Washington.

For the outgoing administration, as Mr. Golden said, Los Angeles is different from Plains, GA, and Mr. Reagan is not going to federally owned space. The leases in Los Angeles are in the $30 to $40 a square foot range. So we're going to have additional costs for the outgoing President that we didn't have with former President Carter. Therefore, a commensurate increase of at least a total of $1.5 million should also be provided for the outgoing administration.

Another issue is the leadtime. I agree completely with the committee's provision allowing us to obligate transition money 30 days prior to the President leaving. My preference would be 60 days. As an example, on the last transition, in Mr. Carter's case, even with working a lot of overtime on nights and weekends, we could not get his space ready in the Richard Russell Building in Atlanta where he chose to go until the middle of March, so that constituted two moves from Plains to Atlanta. There is just no way you can have space available January 20. Also there's always leadtime required on furniture, carpet, drapes, and those sorts of things. Even 60 days is pushing it, to have an office up for a former President the day he leaves office. So the more leadtime we can get, the better it is for

us.

On further reading of section 5, transition expenses, Mr. Chairman, I'm not quite sure what it means. But if it does mean that the Government would pay household moving effects for new employees coming in to the transition staff, the whole number would change. You can spend $50,000 to $60,000 a person moving them across country today. And again, going back to President Reagan's group of people, he had about 1,600 transition employees. Even if half of those people took jobs with the Federal Government, and we had to move them to Washington, the proposed $3.5 million limitation is totally inadequate, and I wouldn't even want to guess what the number would be.

If that's the intent of that amendment, we have a whole new ball game on the amount of money that's available because there would be large amounts involved to move people these days.

One other issue. I know this committee doesn't have jurisdiction over the Former Presidents Act, but it does intertwine with the Transition Act to some extent. If we are talking about catching up and making things current that have not been adjusted for inflation, there are two provisions in that act that need consideration. The pension for a widow of a former President is still $20,000 and has been since 1971. The former President's pension is tied to the salary of a cabinet officer, so every time there's a pay raise, his pension goes up, but the widow's has remained the same. And I think that should be addressed. There was a proposal at one time

that the widow's pension should be two-thirds of a former President's pension.

And the staff salaries of the former President, that limitation of $96,000 per annum goes back to 1970. And if you just take the Government pay raises, 3 or 4 percent a year since 1970, that figure probably ought to be in the neighborhood of $218,000. $96,000 today will basically only buy you a chief of staff and a secretary, so they're still dipping into their own pocket to pay staff or get volunteers. I think those two things should be corrected. Similarly, the cap of $150,000 for the first 30 months should be about $340,000. Mr. BROOKS. Fortunately they've had deep pockets.

Well, I appreciate your bringing that to our attention. Was that covered in your statement?

Mr. FONTAINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. We appreciate your bringing that up. We're not going to cover that in this legislation.

Mr. FONTAINE. I understand. I was just trying to bring it up.

Mr. BROOKS. But it's a good idea. It's something that needs to be done. I don't mind giving a good bit more money to Lady Bird Johnson. She'll spend it for wild flowers and good deeds around the world, and I'd like to have her have it. And we may have some Vice Presidential widows that are not affluent. That can happen. I can't think of any right now. [Laughter.]

Mr. BROOKS. One other question. If the present Vice President is elected, would that then reduce the amount that is necessary to the outgoing administration?

Mr. FONTAINE. This would be the first time that has ever happened, where we would have an incumbent Vice President become the President-elect. However, a review of the Presidential Transition Act would indicate to me that if this occurs he would be entitled to the services authorized in section 3 of the act for Presidentselect and Vice-Presidents-elect for which $2 million is authorized to be appropriated, as well as entitlements for services authorized in section 4 of the act for former Presidents and Vice Presidents for which $1 million is authorized to be appropriated.

Each outgoing administration splits the money. Mr. Carter kept $800,000 and gave Mr. Mondale $200,000. It has been different, depending on the administration. But if this occurs it would probably cut down on the amount of money Mr. Reagan would have to give Mr. Bush if he was the President-elect.

Mr. HORTON. So that is something that is determined by the outgoing President, how they divide the money up.

Should that be divided up by us, by the legislation? Or is it better to leave it like it is?

Mr. FONTAINE. I think the present arrangements are working well.

Mr. BROOKS. The Vice President never complains. He'll get elected President after he leaves.

I want to thank you very much, and we have enjoyed having you down here.

Mr. GOLDEN. It has been a pleasure working with you.

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Fontaine, you're not going to escape too, are you?

Mr. FONTAINE. No, sir. I'll be around.

Mr. BROOKS. Our second witness this morning is the Comptroller General of the United States, the Honorable Charles A. (Chuck) Bowsher.

GAO has conducted detailed audits of the past several transitions. I would ask unanimous consent that four GAO reports or their summaries on transition activities be made part of the hearing record at this time.

[See appendix for the information referred to.]

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Bowsher is accompanied by his Special Assistant, a very distinguished and able public servant, Milton J. Socolar. He can still wear those old suits with the wide lapels. It indicates he is working hard, keeping his weight down. Proud of you. And Gene Dodaro. Glad to have you.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES A. BOWSHER, COMPTROLLER GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES, U.S. GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE, ACCOMPANIED BY MILTON J. SOCOLAR, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMPTROLLER GENERAL, AND GENE L. DODARO, SENIOR ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR

Mr. BOWSHER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We're pleased to be here today to discuss H.R. 3932, the Presidential Transitions Effectiveness Act.

The bill authorizes appropriations and amends some sections of the Presidential Transition Act of 1963 to improve the act's operations.

We support passage of H.R. 3932. Its provisions would further ensure the smooth transfer of power between incoming and outgoing administrations. Our experience in auditing the expenditure of public funds in every transition since the act was passed supports the need for the changes this bill proposes.

I will discuss our views on four areas of H.R. 3932: The amount and availability of funds; disclosure provisions which would address potential conflicts of interest; the provision of funds to the outgoing President and Vice President; and several administrative matters. In the last three of these areas, we are raising some issues for subcommittee consideration.

First, the bill increases the amount and changes the availability of transition funds. The intent of the bill is to provide adequate public resources to eliminate the need for a President-elect to seek private funding for the transition. If the Presidential Transition Act is to function as intended, Federal assistance must cover a substantial part of the transition expenses.

This bill, by increasing the appropriations for the President and the Vice-President-elect from $2 million to $3.5 million should accomplish this objective by reducing the need for private funding. In addition, by providing for future increases through indexing the authorization under the act to compensate for subsequent increases in the cost of transition services and expenses, this legislation reduces the likelihood that future Presidents-elect will be faced with inadequate Federal transition funds.

Second, the bill provides for disclosure of private financial contributions and expenditures as a condition for receiving public transi

tion funds. This disclosure provision should increase accountability for the transition operations.

While the bill's intent is to provide adequate public funding for transitions, the transition traditionally uses a mix of public and private funds. However, while providing for comprehensive disclosure of these private funds, this legislation does not explicitly provide for audit of these private contributions and expenditures. In the absence of legislation authorizing audits and providing a right to access record, GAO or other Federal offices could be denied the information necessary to audit private contributions and expenditures.

Because an audit has a positive impact on the accuracy of financial reporting, the subcommittee may wish to include such a provision.

The bill also mandates disclosure of the names, most recent employment, and funding sources of all transition personnel including volunteers. The bill requires the disclosure prior to the employee's making contact with Federal departments and agencies. This provision should adequately guard against potential conflicts of interest and we support its enactment.

Third, the present Transition Act provides funding support for the outgoing President and Vice President during the 6 months following the inauguration. H.R. 3932 would allow this 6-month period to begin 1 month prior to the inauguration to facilitate the relocation of the outgoing President and Vice President, and the acquisition of office space and furnishing.

We support this provision. It addresses a problem GSA encountered in providing an office for the former President by the time the President leaves office. Currently there is no provision which allows any preparation for the departure of the outgoing President and Vice President.

However, the committee proposal needs to be clarified. Under the existing law, the Former Presidents Act, does not provide support for the former President and Vice President until 6 months after they leave office. As written, H.R. 3932 would result in a 1month gap in support for the former President and Vice President before provisions of the Former Presidents Act take effect. We have provided language to the subcommittee to correct that problem.

Finally, the bill contains provisions for several administrative changes to the Presidential Transition Act. We fully support two provisions and propose a clarification to the third.

First, we fully support the provisions for the use of Government aircraft on a reimbursable basis. This responds to recommendations we have made in the past to provide a fuller accounting of transitions expenditures.

Second, we believe that allowing expenditures by the President and Vice-President-elect for up to 30 days after inauguration provides for a more orderly termination of transition operations than currently exist.

Finally, we endorse the intent of section 5 to provide reimbursement for moving expenses to officials involved in the transition who later accept appointments in the new administration. Existing law permits payment of travel and transportation expenses of per