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M: Brissas. Yes, sir.

M: DINILLAN. Now, in those instances you do pay royalties, d ng pr.ghted materials that you use? The vas. Yes, and we agree with the principle of that. MDemos. Now, do you negotiate with the copyright

of those syndicators! M: Buss. We buy the program generally from a distribi

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W Darifluon. Can you tell me if the word "distributor”

ar to "syndicator"? M: PASAN. Yes. MDANIELS 3. Thank you, that's all the questions I have. V KR. The gentleman from California, Mr. W M:. W:64.1Nm. If I understand you correctly, when you are

fin a larg market, you can extract from an advertiser a wimy of his access to that market. In lira have any data showing that the copyright owner sh

Mr. Simon. Here is the dark line, the primary viewing line atas
Mr. DANIELSON. And this is from San Francisco.
Mr. Simon. That's correct, San Francisco stations.

Mr. BRESNAN. The white area goes all the way up to Omgon, a:. east into Nevada.

Miss Da Costa advises me that, not only do the broadcaster frim San Francisco claim this coverage-and therefore ultimately monito filter back to the copyright area--but she says also, that the si cators will at the same time be selling programs in the Sacranera Reno and Redding markets, also, they are selling them again to the markets. And what they are proposing to do now in the case of CATV, is to sell them a third time in many cases.

Mr. DANIELSON. Now la-tly, it's my understanding that the ow!:' of a copyrightable item, let's say the film of Bambi, may sell the right to use it to, say, a Boston TV station for their regular broad. cast.

Suppose that the same film has been sold hy the copyright owner. leased, licensed, what have you, to a TV station in the city of New York for its use. And through cables they picked it up and distes nated the program within the city of Boston, let's say, a month 1: advance of the showing in the city of New York.

Does not this diminish the value of the Boston licensee in usis the film?

Mr. BRESNAN. Sir, if the copyright owner-the owner of the proud uct-didn't recognize when selling that product, in this case, tha Bambi film to the New York station, didn't recognize that that ! would go up into the Boston arra, he is a fool because the correct area of these stations, as you will see when you examine the browhunts that I am going to leave with you, is clearly depicted. This is not It's no surprise-it shouldn't be a surprise because it's stated in the advertising literature how far out that station's signal goes because of CATV.

Mr. DANIELSON. OK. Are you, sir, or any of you in vour group also to tell me, or do you have any expertise, how are the negotiations carried on between a copyright owner the owner of Bambi, for example and the station !

I don't know anything about that. Do you advertising people de that kind of work?

Miss Da ('Osta. Well, generally the syndicator is the one that's programming to individual stations within markets. They neantiale and take that into account, the number of homes that are derived to that particular station and that particular market.

Mr. DANIELSON. I think we have a word of art here. You wid"71.di cator," are they the people who well the films, and so forth

Miss DA (Osta. Yes, sir.
Mr. DANIELSON (continuinx). To broadcasting stations!

Mis Da Costa. There is some company that does thit, ato. there are some originating producers that do their own selling

Mr. DANIFIAN. But in that connetion, the sale includes while ser in the copyright rovalty, that is in the package.

VDicota. That is a total packageyes.

Mr. DANILOR. Now, some of the Teleprompter stations oras ** their own programs. I am sure I heard you say that.

M: BPeris. The copyright owner negotiates with the broa for wh he will receive for the carriage of his progra

tower has available to him the advertising broch masini, bowing the coverage area.

Their no reason to believe that the copyright owner r 'Iv Ware of such material in his negotiations. I hay

or the negotiations, I'm not sure what goes on there. V» Wans. Dows anybody at the table have personal ex

Mini Il Comta. I don't think that anyone can really determi
me of the rate they are charging, if it's just a copyright

**, or the use of the program. I think the syndicator est ... tat will include some copyright fees. And also, in neg ritiral on he will hopefully get what he feels the pro

V» W. But at least you are representing to us as a fact symborishad upon the the total market to be served.

Conta. That is taken into consideration, yes, sir.
M: W:41 Now, you have experience. Miss Da Costa,

Anal accounts. I gather your agency does no

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- Di Cinta. We have one that we call a local advert M.tal Bank

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WW11. I was thinking more about Joe's Used
M. Will It ++ms to me that local independents are
man to dealers selling their cars. I don't understa

arit is really appealing to those large market
2*** h a lowal car dealer would be unwilling t
tof expanded coverage because it's beyond his norn

Pentathe yep, in't it likely that commercial operator
Indo Nosil bo denied the market of their own

Mr. BRENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Dasi Now, in those instances you do pay royalties, do you, for the copyrighted materials that you use!

Mr. BRESSAN, Yem, and we agrie with the principle of that.

Mr. DASTHMON. low, do you negotiate with the copyright owner, or with one of those indicators!

Jr. Bernds. We buy the program generally from a distributor of the program. Mr. LANTISO8. Can you tell me if the word distributor" as you

It is similar to "wyndicators!
Mr. BRAN. Yes
Mr. DAS IST MY. Thank you, that's all the questions I have,
Mr. Kim SVER. The gentleman from California, Mr. Wiggins.

Mr. Wilsm. If I under and you correctly, when you are sing time to a large market, you can eitract from an advertiser a greater fre because of his litto that market.

Dhe you have any data showing that the copyright owner shares in that!

Mr. BREVIV. The copyright owner negotiates with the broadcaster for the fee which he will receive for the carriage of his program. The cups hit on her han alable to him the advertising brochures of the station, nowing the coverakarra.

I hasp no won to believe that the copyright owner wouldn't take advantage of ih material in his negotiations. I have never wat in on them fogotiations, I'm not sure what goes on these,

Mr. Walls Do* anyonly at the table have personal experience in t...!

Di l'onsa. Idost't think that anyone un rally determine what {wirtion of the rate they are changing if it's plus copinight, or just the time, or the be of the program. I think the ansator putablishes will inelude some copyright fenom. nes, in negotiating with the next on the wall hopefully th what he feels the program 15 wortli.

Mr W14.11. But at lead you are intent11.! to us a fait that the Pristul firinten noontipprofufi! met het to be red. Mwl Cluat in taar! 11.10 1991-01ptation, Ip sir.

Mr. Wice, low, you have puree, Da contin, with na. tal and nigrottal a count I rritur pour any com not handle lew all adsrette.

1. -- (una Wibase to the call a low al autorier, the 1. Mitat. Brik.

Vi lain* Will. I was thith:1.5 monglout Jean Paul (ar La

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V. RIVERMEIER. The chairman will interrupt to announce t.

minug for a vote on the House floor.
M: Duis. Are we coming back?
M-KASTEN VEIER. No, we are not coming back.
W* [PAvIwN. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that the pamj
*. 5. opran yon placed on the table--they don't belong in our reci
i dimeve them for our files, for the record ?
X KINTEA MEIER. Yes. Any materials that the witnesses have
Teleman from New York, Mr. Pattison?
X Paroles. Well, I had some, but we are not going to have
M: KSEN MEER. On behalf of the committee, we thank you

21. Mix Da Costa, and your associates, for appearing here t
par will announce that tomorrow at 9:30 the subcomi

sebe, first to hear briefly the news archives issue with tw porn, and then, at 10 o'clock witnesses generally supporting s

5:n particularly from the broadcasting industry. Portat time, the subcommittee will stand adjourned. Tuinard statement of William J. Bresnan follows:]



inclined to go to the owner of a copyrighted work and buy something that is shown in one of these isolated areas?

What I am trying to project to you very inartfully is that it was to me there is a difference betweeen local advertising and regions an: national advertising, and that to the extent that national adsert. blanket an area, they deny to a copyright owner the opportunity to : his work to a local advertiser. Have I made that point clear?

Mr. RAILSBACK. Will the gentlemen yield?

Mr. RAILSBACK. Oak Park Savings and Loan carry ball games and they come into my area, and they come in with local advertisi:g. Op Koons.

Miss Da Costa. I'm not familiar with those.

Mr. RAILSBACK. His point ismnif the gentleman will yield further you may not always have a regional advertiser.

Miss Da Costa. Let me just explain to you how that works starting with the national advertiser. A national advertiser presumably has ! tional distribution, and his product can be bought across the court Therefore, any advertising that he buys in one market, or an aru! lation of markets, his advertising is worth putting it on that 4: because his product is everywhere.

A regional advertiser has a similar situation within the regionara that they have product distribution.

As far as the local, the truly local advertising that you are de ing, sir, that advertiser feels, when he is investing money on s teie vision station within his market that the medium is strong enoug :0 get him customers, even though he pays a 10-perrent pr-mrum for those homes that are not potentials for him.

Jr. Wcains. Well, perhaps that's so. Your illustration mentionat New York City and Oswego, I believe. I would think there is a ** sibility at least that a used car dealership in Oswego, which nimmt otherwise be in the market to buy a movie, is not going to do some that movie is being transmitted to New York City. And that to ar es. tent it is true that a copyright owner is deprived of an opportur ? to sell his product in Oswego.

Mi Da Costa. But if we examine hard research data that 14 312:1able to us by county, where we can see the signals and station ti ! are being viewed by the homes in the county, we see that 10 peti! of a county's homes views signals that are imported from as far sur # New York. And consequently the potential for that loxal car is tributor in 30 percent of the market.

Mr. Wanns. Well, I would like to be expresi to this hard data in which you has your conclusion. I realize the conclusion is stated into testimony, but supprime that you worked out the firins in support of tuin and, if you have them, would make them available to the countler Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate it.

Mi Di Couru. Sir, I did prepare a slected list of counties in wich I looked at the actual viewing as it in reported by the Nielen tal. which is a rezed marrh organization. Thus is the kind of infor mation, if you will allow me to just mention it.

For example, in Onenia County, which is in the State of Nee Vioris We found that 3.4 perent of the housholds viewed the WENT IN Luljon in the court of a whole week.

Personer I am William J. Bresnan, Senior Vice President
**Omoting and President of our Cable Division, Teleprompter is the
2*** Mpt "piesiszen company, having approximately twice as man
***TID as the second largest company.
REJ Jay Ricks, a partner in the firm of Hogan & Hartson

...Curta, Director of Media Information and Analysis

and i ber left is Barry P. Simon, Teleprompter's Vice Presic

*****'* baition on copyright is straightforward. We beliet ***** should aot be required to pay ANY copyright fee for

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his sition, it is necessary to understand a basic fact a o 72 krs--a fact which makes that industry unique among

putrighted materials. The broadcaster, unlike the mi Ek gaihinber, does not sell a copyrighted product. What ti

bransoletin of the viewers. The purchaser is the advert
mong other horrivadesa ter can deliver to the advertiser, the more ti
* Add the more the advertiser pays, the more money is

1920 mp to pay the copyright owner.
t's safe this relationship only by enlarging the audier

best napr. It many cases this actually increases the ad
***. to pas the copyright owner. In no case does it de

***Harshing to which he is entitled.
mit dhe me titrated hy two examples.

***: Este Nation located in a community, part of w
p'est tenuption is poor. Imagine also that a cable
** up to the famouple of this community. The people w
Late timpures: (1) they can install a tall rooftop a

for his ardenast by the television station, (2) they can Postem and thereby get the benefit of the antei Pirlerinin srxtem or 131 they can do neither and

***...* por cataria. As the Supreme Court has twice r p4ar to gaily identical Since no copyright liabilit

Pop Twits Swwn antenna, why should there be an

** P**sva! !"t of the antenna tower erected by the ce

loist answer to say that the cable television system * *****, first ont of proriding its service for choo

up the fplerinin set manufarturer and **** reiated businesses) also apply

Mr. K A TERVEIfr. The chairman will interrupt to announce this is the wol.dring for a vote on the House floor.

Mr. I ANDILSON. Are we coming back?
Mr. K1412 METER. SO, we are not coming back.

Mr. DANIELWIN. Mr. (hairman, may I suggest that the pamphlets olm witnemes p!urd on the table- they don't belong in our reordbitma wennene them for our filess, for the record!

Mr. Kanta MIER. Yes. Any materials that the witnesses have made available.

Tip gentleman from Vw York, Mr. Pattison !
Mr. l'Armix. Well, I had some, but we are not going to have time.

Mr. K-12 YIR. Onthalf of the committee, we thank you, Mr.
Brunan, Min la conta, and your contes, for appearing here today.

'le (hair will announce that tomorrow at 9.30 the subkommittee will convenie, first to hear briedly the newardes in die with two wit. f#****; and then, at 10 o'clock witnesses generally supporting wprtion 111, morr particularly from the broadea-eing indu-tru.

I'ntil that time, the aulommittee will stand adjourned.

[The prepared statement of William J. Birənan follows: STAIL MINI O WILIAM J BR **AN, Sree Pro Prre NT AND PUSIENT,

CABE DIVINION. Twin MF1YR (osip. Grantertwin I am Willian J Brrulan Sontur V'ler President of Tele. 11.futet forpad Prvulde lot of our l'atele luigi Ile propter in the waliot la post mulle piny19,430 p!" 121, bar.. approbately fine as many cable tuleva siilow Palerea te larse navathi fulay

On thy richt in ja Riran, a further in the form of loan & Hartin On my 1911. Impre!!**!! . Draf of Meclin 11. vranations and Anaisis nt Tf Py**& Co and for bar left in Barr) P Boito. Tele pruzilipolera ** President and «!.tal (1973. i

Irie pot app. maltion ruftriche la strah! twart We bellese rahle tr?ry;a; ***siin, till 80 la sutred tu .) 14" right fre for the car. r! non it tot de aut ***

Timfernant th: gwa!!" It is means tu nepalanda bab fait aimut the farah. It of 'atry a fait nl ch ihre !lat in fru uitp. ano bagall eller of otostopno gutrusta! 111. Thir finder har the best le fit darf the wok pas des de fustavad praw Wat the bord netrpel la the g'irl," stof the revers itin pirshare the advertiser 'ite

terror!! 11 ofertas deliver to the adverti-ple that the adver to * ! su i thar 11. pr tlır adat. Te le tre lises vry is avariatie tror por los Tih!

1. 2.. : tos Filan. *' a 14. avail

1.**...! IrT'U ATT ref ! 11.1

lu to tardit de frase the Art 41.6

.....*') wl.. telela"....d 1.3 1.

1. id it. I Lilly furt, who ha fe in ***Triple,

*** 1. 1

: *lilirl

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*** muld go on and on. But rather than belabor the point, I'll sir Igal suure themselves to the Committee.

' : De pura viewers that cable adds to the audience of these stat 3* w obie priationship between station and advertiser? It means that L'.t's hopp valuable and so the advertiser pays more. Listen to Winx'a sbo is in charge of all media related research at Ted F "ta!h larginat advertising agency, says:

in Purring on CATV systems has been included in surveys for Base in the total audience reported for individual stations. The ind Ponir rd theme total audience figures to establish rates and corres *** 95 PL This practice compensates stations for all viewing incl Hip place within CATV homes (both inside and outside the parent ** -air receptioni."

cu to our example, we see that the copyright owner whose cr "0.7 ms the New York City station and imported, by cable. to view " De kwn deprived of the chance to earn money by showi

OstopoFor the advertising revenues to be derived from sł ,*ms to the cable subscribers in Oswego have already been deri > writy station And, as a result, the New York City station w ya Prader more than if the station were unable to reach the (


in the capirright holder to be compensated again this time bokningsmate spateun--would be giving him the windfall of an und **!;013 This is a windfall that neither the cable television indus

if the American households which are cable television subscrib

Wippon, at 2:55 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned, to poput ya.m., Thursday, June 12, 1975.]

Before going on to the second example, let's pause for a moment the same alternative (3)- where the prospective viewer neither buy the tall anteh.... : subscribes to the cable service but simply doesn't watch the programs bria) 1 by our hypothetical television station. If this happens what is the sprijiet The station has a smaller audience and therefore its advertising spots are ! tractive to potential advertisers. So the station gets less money. And this 14. there is less money available to the station to pay the copyrigbe valer fra this we can see that cable television, far from stealing from the required owner, by increasing the size of the broadcaster's audience actually increase monies paid to the copyright owner.

Now consider a second situation. In this case imagine a telerisjon status in e York City whose programs are imported-via microwave bop bop a rali s38*** and retransmitted over the cable to the cable television system's kubwa. Oswego, New York who otherwise would not be able to view the New World

Is this situation really any different from our first example? Is the current owner somehow damaged by the action of the cable station? Is he, perbaikan prired of the ability to exploit his creation in Oswego after it has beet »L 'bre on the cable?

The answer to all these questions is, no. Because of the nature of bma daca nomics, the coprright owner cannot be injured by the cable sistemi the New York City station into Oswego. And this is true eren without ref* 4.97 tion of the complicated FCC exclusivity rules which wek to gire added to treat tion to the copyright owner and which may require the cable system to corpore programming so as to allegedly protect the copyright owner's markets

As in the first example, hy showing the imported programs in () pelike me system increases the audience of the New York City station. And I..* s:! just a theoretical increase. The rating services - Nielsen and ARB und isme sums of money to keep track of cable subscribers with the paalt wat in single cable subscriber is accountel for in their surseys and videos wat into some television station's rate base. Thus, by singly checking in View ** find for example, that

In San Luis Ohispo County, California, 3010of the telerían view the Los Angeles independent and network stations on a frena?':*

In Grant (ounty, New Mexico, 51% of the television botes 1. ve El Paso network stations on a regular hamis,

In Chemung County, New York, 19.30, of the teleri-ion bases rien be New York City indepændent stations on a regular basis,

In Lane County, Oregon, 2004 of the television homes yjew the Pr.and independent and network stations on a rugular basis, and

In Sweetwater County. Wyoming, sic of the television bobu r-* :* Salt Lake City network stations on a regular basis. In these cases, and in countless others, such corerage would be 101. ***: without able telerision.

This fact has not been lost on the broadcasters. For example, the ilepsi ho put out by the Association of Independent Trietis on S'adjons, in 1! janting the upi illustrations in which the white anas bow ete rase pendent afatjana ** onhanerd bs ruble teleriaion, ******

***The miyompanying illustrations show how the felostial, in can drar increase the physical towerage area of independent stations ... iata. intuene far beyond the perimeters of the local teiernunarhr! "Advertisin on cubigant on neuteul Indo-fr.dent *a"

!!... *4*X:a TV putprake ... reach a boties audieties of this as 19..1 national regional advertises as thomas situated win the drone bom *** arm.**

As a further illustration of this point, I have hep a pre brow!,"17*** put out by tries'1'Sahr* pa'.*' * . J's Wronor inci 1348 (ar'le innt.ben in d. .1!.* 11. kat artida,

KTLA, an indefent stalen in lan lles polarme a anier puppr*: muienen linn ani ot! ople Alex Dr! Ik op bodde swtpleni! xation (tulits ** "* ?ifle ah! j* in*, tng way of ('71'. e

WGN, an indef*f*t tun in Pisa Rocca altı Varung tar tegard the reach : 18 kmal box treof,"$*****}, To mapan of Kut forward athlete in Sai lokprits shows a serem Por uw of "Youn'nin America" *** Patendidik. thanks to cable inev.s. the as far an dortherta Wybuild

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