Mr. SIMON. Here is the dark line, the primary viewing line aga Mr. SIMON. That's correct, San Francisco stations. Mr. BRESNAN. The white area goes all the way up to Oregon, a east into Nevada. Miss Da Costa advises me that, not only do the broadcasters fre San Francisco claim this coverage and therefore ultimately mory filter back to the copyright area-but she says also, that the syri. cators will at the same time be selling programs in the Sacramera Reno and Redding markets, also; they are selling them again to the markets. And what they are proposing to do now in the case of CATV. is to sell them a third time in many cases. Mr. DANIELSON. Now lastly, it's my understanding that the ow of a copyrightable item, let's say the film of Bambi, may sell the right to use it to, say, a Boston TV station for their regular broad cast. Suppose that the same film has been sold by the copyright owner, leased, licensed, what have you, to a TV station in the city of New York for its use. And through cables they picked it up and dissemi nated the program within the city of Boston, let's say, a month advance of the showing in the city of New York. Does not this diminish the value of the Boston licensee in using the film? Mr. BRESNAN. Sir, if the copyright owner-the owner of the prod uct-didn't recognize when selling that product, in this case, the Bambi film to the New York station, didn't recognize that that smal would go up into the Boston area, he is a fool because the coverage area of these stations, as you will see when you examine the brochures that I am going to leave with you, is clearly depicted. This is no secret. It's no surprise-it shouldn't be a surprise because it's stated in the advertising literature how far out that station's signal goes because of CATV. Mr. DANIELSON. OK. Are you, sir, or any of you in your group ab to tell me, or do you have any expertise, how are the negotiations carried on between a copyright owner the owner of Banbi, for * example and the station! I don't know anything about that. Do you advertising people do that kind of work? Miss DA COSTA. Well, generally the syndicator is the one that "s programming to individual stations within markets. They negotiate and take that into account, the number of homes that are delivered to that particular station and that particular market. Mr. DANIELSON, I think we have a word of art here. You said "syndi cators," are they the people who sell the films, and so forth Miss Da Costa. Yes, sir. Mr. DANIELSON [continuing]. To broadcasting stations! Miss DA COSTA. There is some company that does that, altho there are some originating producers that do their own selling. Mr. DANIELSON. But in that connection, the sale includes whatever is the copyright royalty, that is in the package. Miss DA CONTA. That is a total package, yes. Mr. DANIELSON. Now, some of the Teleprompter stations or grafe their own programs, I am sure I heard you say that. Mr. BRESNAN. Yes, sir. Mr. DANIELSON. Now, in those instances you do pay royalties, do you, for the copyrighted materials that you use? Mr. BRESNAN. Yes, and we agree with the principle of that. Mr. DANIELSON. Now, do you negotiate with the copyright owner, or with one of those syndicators! Mr. BRESSAN. We buy the program generally from a distributor of the program. Mr. DANIELSON. Can you tell me if the word "distributor" as you use it is similar to "syndicator"! Mr. BRENAN. Yes. Mr. DANIELSON. Thank you, that's all the questions I have. Mr. KASTEN METER. The gentleman from California, Mr. Wiggins. Mr. WIGGINS, If I understand you correctly, when you are selling time to a large market, you can extract from an advertiser a greater fee because of his access to that market. Do you have any data showing that the copyright owner shares in that! Mr. BRESNAN. The copyright owner negotiates with the broadcaster for the fee which he will receive for the carriage of his program. The copyright owner has available to him the advertising brochures of the station, showing the coverage area. I have no reason to believe that the copyright owner wouldn't take advantage of such material in his negotiations. I have never sat in on those negotiations, I'm not sure what goes on there. Mr. WIGGINS, Does anybody at the table have personal experience M DA COSTA. I don't think that anyone can really determine what portion of the rate they are charging, if it's just a copyright, or just the time, or the use of the program. I think the syndicator establishes the rate that w.li include some copyright fees. And also, in negotiating with the station he will hopefully get what he feels the program is worth. Mr. WIGGINS. But at least you are representing to us as a fact that the negotiated for is based upon the the total market to be served. Mist Da Costa. That is taken into con „deration, yes, sir, Mr WIGGINS, Now, you have experience, M ́s Da Costa, with national and regional accounts, I gather your agency does not handle local advertisers, M-96 DA COST、 We have one that we call a local advertiser, the Chase Manhattan Bank. Mr. Wiggins, Well, I was thinkit g more about Joe's Used Car Lot. Laughter | Mr. Widorss. It seems to the fat los al in, leper dents are constantly barraged by auto dealers se, og thereis I don't understand that a local usd cat lot is really appealing to those large market areas My fouling in that Sachin local car de aer won 1 be ur wine 1g to pay for that kiad of expanded cover age because it is beyond his normal service If that the cave, por 't it likely fiat cormer al operators emilarly wtuated wond be denied the market of their own, and would not be |